Daniel Carroll – Catholic
Thomas Fitzsimons – Catholic
Roger Sherman – Congregationalist
Nathaniel Gorham – Congregationalist
John Langdon – Congregationalist
Nicholas Gilman – Congregationalist
Abraham Baldwin – Congregationalist; Episcopalian
William Samuel Johnson – Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Madison Jr. – Episcopalian
George Read – Episcopalian
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer – Episcopalian
David Brearly – Episcopalian
Richard Dobbs Spaight, Sr. – Episcopalian
Robert Morris – Episcopalian
Gouverneur Morris – Episcopalian
John Rutledge – Episcopalian
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney – Episcopalian
Charles Pinckney – Episcopalian
Pierce Butler – Episcopalian
George Washington – Episcopalian
Benjamin Franklin – Episcopalian
William Blount – Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Wilson – Episcopalian; Presbyteran
Rufus King – Episcopalian; Congregationalist
Jacob Broom – Lutheran
William Few – Methodist
Richard Bassett – Methodist
Gunning Bedford Jr. – Presbyterian
James McHenry – Presbyterian
William Livingston – Presbyterian
William Paterson – Presbyterian
Hugh Williamson – Presbyterian
Jared Ingersoll – Presbyterian
Alexander Hamilton – Huguenot; Presbyterian; Episcopalian
Jonathan Dayton – Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Blair – Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Dickinson – Quaker; Episcopalian
George Clymer – Quaker; Episcopalian
Thomas Mifflin – Quaker; Lutheran

As you can see over half of them were Episcopalian as I mentioned in #52.

And ALL of them are Christians!

OK, I’m hitting the club now! After dealing with you, I NEED a few drinks!

The Signers of the Declaration of Independence

Charles Carroll – Catholic
Samuel Huntington – Congregationalist
Roger Sherman – Congregationalist
William Williams – Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott – Congregationalist
Lyman Hall – Congregationalist
Samuel Adams – Congregationalist
John Hancock – Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett – Congregationalist
William Whipple – Congregationalist
William Ellery – Congregationalist
John Adams – Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine – Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton – Episcopalian
John Penn – Episcopalian
George Ross – Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. – Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. – Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton – Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge – Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee – Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee – Episcopalian
George Read – Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney – Episcopalian
Samuel Chase – Episcopalian
William Paca – Episcopalian
Thomas Stone – Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry – Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson – Episcopalian
Francis Lewis – Episcopalian
Lewis Morris – Episcopalian
William Hooper – Episcopalian
Robert Morris – Episcopalian
John Morton – Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins – Episcopalian
Carter Braxton – Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison – Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. – Episcopalian
George Wythe – Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson – Episcopalian
Benjamin Franklin – Episcopalian
Button Gwinnett – Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson – Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes – Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer – Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean – Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton – Presbyterian
Abraham Clark – Presbyterian
John Hart – Presbyterian
Richard Stockton – Presbyterian
John Witherspoon – Presbyterian
William Floyd – Presbyterian
Philip Livingston – Presbyterian
James Smith – Presbyterian
George Taylor – Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush – Presbyterian

This whole “debate” jumped off b/c you failed to understand that our Constitution was Biblically based.

I’ve over proved that is was! The End!

But here’s why I doubt your intelligence, and your knowledge and understanding of history:

Earlier in this back and forth, you referenced Jefferson’s “beef” with Henry over religion.

“Jefferson’s god was not the Christian Triune God. Patrick Henry’s was definitely Christian. (Jefferson had beef with him about establishing religion in Virginia as a matter of fact.)” – Rob #103

You obviously didn’t understand the debate that Jefferson and Henry had.

As you conceded (#120), Henry was an uber Christian (GOD Bless him!). But guess what, so was Jefferson! Jefferson was an uber Christian who believed in the doctrines of Christ, and called himself a “Real Christian”, and a “Disciple”.

HOWEVER…

Henry’s argument was:

Christianity is the best religion, it is the only religion upon which man can be saved, a government can only be successful if it is rooted in Christianity, AND we have to force all Americans to be Christians.

Jefferson’s argument was:

Yes, Christianity is the best, yes it is the only way man can be saved, yes a government can only be successful under it, BUT we CAN NOT force people to be Christians.

Henry wanted to construct our laws in such a way that it forced people to be Christians.

Jefferson totally disagreed with that. Jefferson reminded Henry that they left England b/c of religious persecution and he believed that freedoms, particularly the freedom of religion, are what would make this country great!

Jefferson pointed out that free-will is from GOD and that it would be *un-Christian*, in many ways, to restrict that GOD given free-will. GOD gave us the free-will to choose our religion or choose no religion at all. GOD gave us free-will to make right and wrong decisions. (“Many are called, but only few are chosen.”) Jefferson pointed out that not everyone would make the right decision (be Christian) but that was the way it was suppose to be!

In the end, as you know, Jefferson won! We are not forced to be Christians here. We have the freedom of religion. But just b/c Jefferson wanted to give people the right to worship as they choose, or not worship at all, does not make him any less of a Christian. In fact, it might just make him more of a Christian than Henry!

IF, you made the sophisticated argument that gays should have that same free-will to marry whomever they choose. If you wanted to argue that Jefferson MIGHT support gay marriage b/c he was such a strong proponent of free-will. WELL THEN, we would have had an intelligent and enlightening discussion on that!

Of course I would disagree with that, and I have a whole long list of very compelling reasons why. But I would still be able to respect and tolerate your OPINON on that!

But no! You make the stupid decision to debate FACTS! So I’m sorry I called you an idiot, but I have a very low tolerance for stupidity! And you have been arguing facts, which is stupid!

It is a fact that ALL of our Founding Fathers were Christians. (I’ll give you the list)
It is a fact that our Constitution and laws are Biblically based.

You can NOT debate facts!

We can argue all day long until we are both blue in the face whether Marc is a good man or a bad man, whether he is a smart man or a dumb man!

But we can not argue whether he is a black man or a white man! It is a fact that Marc is a black man. You can not argue facts!

But that’s what you’ve been doing this whole time. You’ve been arguing that Marc is a white man (this is an analogy of course!). AND YOU WERE WRONG!!!

I’m done here! You have frustrated me so much, and I can’t waste another Saturday responding to dumb comments. I have to get ready for my friends birthday party. So I will not respond to any more of your comments tonight. I’m also leaving on Sunday for Martha’s Vineyard and I’ll be there for a week (on business), so I will not be in the ‘Shop and I will not be reading or responding for the week.

I wish you the best.

GOD Bless you and GOD Bless your family. Be well!

I NEVER said Thomas Jefferson was the father of the Constitution.

In #52, I said:

“Jefferson is really the Father!”

What I meant by REAL FATHER, is that Jefferson is the Father of America!

Thomas Jefferson is the defining figure that drafted the Declaration of Independence.

The Declaration of ***INDEPENDENCE***!!!!

That was the document that established us as free from England and defined us as a NEW country!

If there was no Declaration of Independence, there would be no America, and so, there would be no Constitution.

Jefferson gave birth to the COUNTRY and so he is the REAL FATHER!

Madison and others gave birth to the Constitution, which came AFTER the country!

I gave this to you way back in #100!

R.oB.,

Don’t you get tired of making yourself look like a fool?????

WE WERE ***NEVER*** TALKING ABOUT JEFFERSON’S BELIEF IN JESUS’ DIVINITY!!!! NEVER!!!

You have to try and change the subject to avoid admitting your wrongs! Stop trying to cover up your stupidity; it only makes it more evident!!!

I have really tired very hard to be kind to your ignorance. But this is just damn ridiculous now.

ROBERT, YOU ARE AN IDIOT! PERIOD!

And I’m not calling you an idiot b/c you have misinterpreted EVERY SINGLE THING on here. I’m not calling you an idiot b/c you have failed to comprehend ALL of the writings of that time. (We all misinterpret and misunderstand something at some point.) I’m calling you an idiot b/c you REFUSE TO ADMIT THAT YOU WERE WRONG!!!!

You said that our Founding Fathers were not Christians – WRONG
You said that our Constitution and laws were not Biblically based – WRONG
You said that it was Adams NOT Greene, who doubted the divinity of Jesus – WRONG

I have proved you WRONG on ALL of this. I gave you quote after quote of our Founding Father’s declaring their Christianity. I showed you the scripture that our Constitution and government was founded. Not to mention, anyone who has read the Constitution and has read the Bible, can easily see that much of the language in the Constitution comes straight from the Bible!!!

But finally, I have told you that it was GREENE who doubted Jesus’ divinity, and NOT Adams (one of our Founders). You argued like an idiot that is was Adams who doubted Jesus’ divinity. You even made up some cockamamie foolishness about Greene saying Jesus was divine. – Jokes!

NOW, You obviously found out that you were WRONG, and it indeed was GREENE who doubted Jesus’ divinity and NOT Adams, so now you try and jump to SOMEONE ELSE!!!

You can’t just admit you were wrong, you have to try and find someone else to misinterpret!!!

Just give up Rob! For your own sake!

You couldn’t even understand what Jefferson was saying about Christianity not being apart of Common Law, and you don’t understand what Jefferson was saying in his “Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus, Compared with Those of Others”.

You have NO IDEA!!! And I’m not going to waste another Saturday and engage in another 100 comments to tell you. B/c you lack reading comprehension and I’ll get no where with you anyway!

But I will sum it up in one cute little sound bite!

“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson in his letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816.

“***A DISCIPLE OF THE DOCTRINES OF JESUS***”

That should tell someone with common sense all they need to know!

The only coffin you put a nail in was your own. Just quit! You are totally lost in your #130 as well!

It seems that when challenged you become hostile and condescending. There is no friendly way to call someone an idiot, Tanya. ALL CAPS is not a proof. Thinking other people are stupid makes you no smarter.

That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore. But that he might conscientiously believe himself inspired from above, is very possible.

DEAR SIR, — I have received and read with thankfulness and pleasure your denunciation of the abuses of tobacco and wine. Yet, however sound in its principles, I expect it will be but a sermon to the wind. You will find it as difficult to inculcate these sanative precepts on the sensualities of the present day, as to convince an Athanasian that there is but one God. I wish success to both attempts, and am happy to learn from you that the latter, at least, is making progress, and the more rapidly in proportion as our Platonizing Christians make more stir and noise about it. The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.

1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect.

2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.

3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion.

These are the great points on which he endeavored to reform the religion of the Jews. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.

1. That there are three Gods.

2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, are nothing.

3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit in its faith.

4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.

5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.

Now, which of these is the true and charitable Christian? He who believes and acts on the simple doctrines of Jesus? Or the impious dogmatists, as Athanasius and Calvin? Verily, I say these are the false shepherds foretold as to enter not by the door into the sheepfold, but to climb up some other way. They are mere usurpers of the Christian name, teaching a counter-religion made up of the deliria of crazy imaginations, as foreign from Christianity as is that of Mahomet. Their blasphemies have driven thinking men into infidelity, who have too hastily rejected the supposed author himself, with the horrors so falsely imputed to him. Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian. I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian.
But much I fear, that when this great truth shall be re-established, its votaries will fall into the fatal error of fabricating formulas of creed and confessions of faith, the engines which so soon destroyed the religion of Jesus, and made of Christendom a mere Aceldama; that they will give up morals for mysteries, and Jesus for Plato. How much wiser are the Quakers, who, agreeing in the fundamental doctrines of the gospel, schismatize about no mysteries, and, keeping within the pale of common sense, suffer no speculative differences of opinion, any more than of feature, to impair the love of their brethren. Be this the wisdom of Unitarians, this the holy mantle which shall cover within its charitable circumference all who believe in one God, and who love their neighbor! I conclude my sermon with sincere assurances of my friendly esteem and respect.

This letter to Benjamin Waterhouse (June 26, 1822) can be found at the University of Virginia website.