1. R.oB. wrote:

My wife and I marvel at what I call “cohabitation marriages” where the “partners” always speak in terms of “my,” “his,” and “hers.” Rarely to you hear “we” in connection to things like money or ownership. It’s like they are already preparing for the divorce. Everyone one of them was a pair of kids from divorce. My wife and I are not. We had models to follow.

But children, there is hope! Kids of divorce can hope to learn from their parents’ mistakes and overcome the obstacles placed before them as long as they are vigilant and willing to work. Take a deep self-inventory of what you want out of relationships, examine what it is you think love should/does look like, review your behaviors in the dating world and see if you have more success finding the right person by changing the parameters of your search.

You make it sound like a query on Google! Just click “I’m Feeling Lucky” for Mr./Ms. Right!

Seriously, your point is well taken. People need to know what they want and be honest about that. Do you want a “good man” or someone who will magically, Supermanically take care of all your problems? Do you really want a “good woman” or the forever desired (but always non-existent) demure slut? Is it a “good marriage” that you want or a work-free happily-ever-after fairytale?

I wanted a good woman and a good marriage. I was lucky enough to find a good woman, but it took a lot of hard work on me to keep her. I tried to be a better boyfriend, lover, partner, shoulder-to-cry-on. Be the kind of person you want around you. I have by no means finished that project, of course, but our marriage is 8 years strong. My wife works my nerves to no end, day in and day out, but I could scarcely breathe without her. It took a death in the family for me to truly realize that. I hope all of you do by much happier means!

2. Piscean Princess wrote:

Great topic. I talk about this all the time. As a child of divorce, I took a long time to figure out what healthy relationships look like.

And I have a girlfriend who has the opposite experience, who has difficulty getting men to stick around. I don’t think that her expectations are unrealistic, but I think the men she encounters are intimidated by her “model”. 50 years of marriage is nothing to sneeze at.

R.oB. – interesting points about the “mine”, “his”, “hers” thing. From my experience being raised by a terribly (financially) scorned single mother, it is EXTREMELY difficult to move past that mindset and get to the true fiscal partnership that I desire. I have managed to work through some of my other mommy-baggage, but the money thing is a toughie.

3. gigi wrote:

Is it such a bad thing to have some “mine, “”his, “”hers” in a relationship? Since, a relationship is a unit of individuals.

4. jazzy wrote:

I’m not married but if I was I would definitely have “my” money. Of course as a married, committed couple you share resources but if I had a joint account with my husband I would also have my own savings account as well.

5. james wrote:

jazzy, not if you were married to me you wouldn’t. why the need for your own savings account? don’t you trust your partner? you planning on stepping out? you must realize, the easiest way to have an affair is to have your own money.

i think i’ve lied to my wife once. it was after i took this girl out to dinner one time. i may have had a tiny crush on her, which never amounted to anything.

anyway, after dinner i went to my visit my brother. almost as soon as i got to my brother’s apartment, my wife called and asked how much i spent on dinner (money was real tight back then). i told her how much i spent. she said that seemed like a lot for one person, especially at that restaraunt.

rather than caving in to the guilt of having dinner with another woman (and inflicted that hurt on my wife), i told her that i just had an extraordinary amount to drink, that i was pretty loaded and that i would see her later.

that was only time i’ve ever lied to my wife in 12 years of marriage and i’ve never “cheated” on her again. if i’d had my own account, my wife would have never suspected anything. that tiny bit of suspicion has probably kept me honest ever since. that and the fact that i’ve never done anything in my life that i regret, so why start now.

three things in a marriage need to be absolutely 100 per cent shared: the money, the home, and the children, and all of the responsibilities associated with them. all the rest, if there’s anything left, you can have on your own.

6. Piscean Princess wrote:

James, I am not married yet, but I disagree with the following:

“three things in a marriage need to be absolutely 100 per cent shared: the money, the home, and the children, and all of the responsibilities associated with them.”

I understand what you mean, but I don’t think that it is possible for those responsibilities to be shared 100%. Plus, as far as the money, I think that each person needs to have a little bit of independence with regard to what they do and where they go and what they spend.

I am a CPA who does everything electronically, including my very detailed monthly budget. My fiance still writes checks to the utility companies and (after driving them around in his car until after the due date) mails them in! I spend my money making my life enjoyable and as comfortable as possible. He spends his money as infrequently as he can possibly manage without defaulting on his contractual obligations. The spending of money for me generally brings joy and happiness. For him, it’s always stressful.

Based on this overview, both of us know that there is no way that we can do anything 100% with regard to money. We will each pay our pro rata share of the household expenses and contribute to our shared savings. We will both have equal weight with regard to how said savings is spent/allocated, regardless of which one put in more based on earnings. But after those shared expenses are paid for, everyone is going to be on their own. I don’t see how either of us could be happy otherwise.

I have a 4-tab excel spreadsheet for a budget and he kinda just keeps tabs on his per-pay spending in his mind or on a piece of paper or a napkin. I don’t care how he works that out when the time comes to pay his cell phone bill or get haircuts. But for the mortgage and our monthly savings, clearly my method makes a hell of a lot more sense and no one is ever confused about what’s going where. That is not 100%. He doesn’t even know what he’s looking at when I show him the spreadsheets. He just wants to know what the monthly amount is that he needs to give to me.

So all of that blah, blah, blah to say……I just take issue with the “100 per cent shared” thing. I don’t think it’s realistic for the average couple. That’s not to say that I think secret savings is the way to go. But still…

7. james wrote:

piscean princess, in your situation, perhaps being a cpa and all, it sounds like your fiance should give up the budgeting and bill paying to you. my wife takes care of all the budgeting and bills, but i do research on investments and savings. your fiance needs to be dragged into the 21st century. get him in! my wife and i are fully automated on every payment except the mortgage and equity line. stamps and gas add up in time and effort that can be spent relaxing or exercising.

children need a little bit of independence, by allowing them some allowance now and then; adults need enough trust and maturity to bring the finances together and keep them that way.

but perhaps my viewpoint is from that of folks who barely make over 100,000 dollars per year. we are barely middle class and have a fair amount of educational and home debt, and don’t have huge amounts of disposable income despite being pretty well off if i don’t say so myself. you and your fiance may be making significantly more money and have less debt to manage. obviously, do whatever is necessary to keep the marriage together. differences about money should never be allowed to destroy your marriage–either having too much or too little.

8. wouldn't you like to know? wrote:

james,

if you knew how much i spent on shoes, i think you’d take back: “jazzy, not if you were married to me you wouldn’t. why the need for your own savings account? don’t you trust your partner?”

please. . .

some shit should be left unsaid, unheard, and unseen. i don’t think i could live with myself, knowing i killed my husband with a “few” receipts. i just don’t think i could. could you imagine me telling his mother that???

i think it’s healthy for a person to have their own little stash and spending money. if you can’t trust a person, then it’s no need to be with them. i beleive in marriage and loyalty, but i’m also a very free and independant spirit, and that’s not going to change just because i own a “ball and chain”. sorry not gonna happen. just like i wouldn’t want to know how much “he” spent on those ridiculous sporting event tickets, model airplanes, jerseys, etc. . .

a person should be able to have “healthy space”, that’s how you keep things interesting and enjoyable…

if my man is broke on a certain day, it’s cool, he can hold something. i mean, i’m not selfish you know???

hey, that’s just my 24yo opinion.

peace.

9. wouldn't you like to know? wrote:

james,

if you knew how much i spent on shoes, i think you’d take back: “jazzy, not if you were married to me you wouldn’t. why the need for your own savings account? don’t you trust your partner?”

please. . .

some shit should be left unsaid, unheard, and unseen. i don’t think i could live with myself, knowing i murdered my husband with a “few” receipts. i just don’t think i could. could you imagine me telling his mother that???

i think it’s healthy for a person to have their own little stash and spending money. if you can’t trust a person, then it’s no need to be with them. i beleive in marriage and loyalty, but i’m also a very free and independant spirit, and that’s not going to change just because i own a “ball and chain”. sorry not gonna happen. just like i wouldn’t want to know how much “he” spent on those ridiculous sporting event tickets, model airplanes, jerseys, etc…

a person should be able to have “healthy space”, that’s how you keep things interesting and enjoyable…

hey, that’s just my little 24yo opinion.

10. wouldn't you like to know? wrote:

hey Doc, my comment got caught up in the Matrix. you think you can retrieve it for me??? i think i submitted twice, please just post it once.

thank you.

11. Piscean Princess wrote:

james, I have completely given up on trying to drag him into the 21st century! LOL! The last conversation we had about that, I was frustrated as hell and he was still driving around with the damn light bill in his visor. There is no way on God’s green earth that I would let him handle ANY bill or payment that I have ANYTHING to do with. EVER.

It’s amazing, no matter how many times I tell him “Babe, your bank has FREE bill pay. You tell them how much to send and when to send it.”, he just can’t figure out that that is different from telling the student loan company and the phone company to just withdraw their payment from his checking account each month. It’s like talking to a 93 year old.

For us, I think that making sure that I am handling the important, together stuff (ie. mortgage, prop. tax, groceries, savings, etc.) will keep harmony in the marriage. I know that I would nag him clean up out of his skin if I had to wonder if he had mailed something to somebody. And I really like the idea of having control over what’s left after we take care of the “us” stuff. Every couple is different.

And, no, we don’t have lots of money that we’re working with. Not a lot of debt, but not tons of cash either.

12. james wrote:

have you tried telling him that once you are married, his chronic/potential lateness on bills getting paid could effect your financial futures together; it certainly has a negative effect on his credit score. i personally could never love somebody who didn’t care about trying to achieve the highest credit score possible. automated paying helps insure a high credit rating. in our life together, i think i bounced like one check and my wife nearly killed me. i haven’t bounced one ever again. threaten to withhold sex if doesn’t move into the 21st century. he’ll automate quicker than you can say masturbate.

13. Piscean Princess wrote:

It’s not impacting his credit so far so he doesn’t understand the implications. He is working on improving his score, but since he has zero debt (outside of student loans….that payment is automatically withdrawn THANK GOD!) he can only pay off old stuff and hope that the gas company doesn’t get mad and call Trans Union.

Once we get married, he will not have the option of paying anything by himself. That is no longer happening as of December. No way. Right now I can walk away from it and just tell myself that it’s not my issue. But I know good-n-well that it is very much my issue and I will be putting a stop to that foolishness.

14. R.oB. wrote:

Gigi,

Two things. One, your statement is well taken.

Since, a relationship is a unit of individuals.

That statement is such a paradox. Almost Zen-like! A good, strong marriage is formed out two people, unity from multiplicity. But to use a sports analogy, there is a difference between a bunch of ball players and a team. If a marriage is to be healthy and survive, there has to be a giving of self. In my experience, these “mine,” “yours” relationships lack the interdependence to make a marriage work. Where’s the team? Where’s the us?

Two, the whole “mine, yours” thing is a fiction anyway. Whether common law or community property state, the marriage “owns” all property acquired during its tenure. That’s why there is a distribution of property during a divorce. My wife is a domestic relations attorney, i.e. divorce, custody, adoption, and you should see the shock when people find out the how the law actually works. So all the mine, yours stuff is garbage. Alimony, child support, asset distribution: that’s all that counts. I’m guessing Piscean Princess knows this:

Once we get married, he will not have the option of paying anything by himself. That is no longer happening as of December. No way. Right now I can walk away from it and just tell myself that it’s not my issue. But I know good-n-well that it is very much my issue and I will be putting a stop to that foolishness.

15. wouldn't you like to know? wrote:

Damn Doc, can i get some of my comments poppin’ please?!
Dang, can my voice be heard? Can Freedom ring for me too? sheeeeesh! i feel so, so, so,-LEFT OUT!

ps- i have a comment in matt’s post that didn’t post as well.

**sitting in corner with arms folded across my chest, pouting**

LOL

16. gigi wrote:

Boy meets girl, they date, and maybe even marry. Then, the two morph into one creating a new entity. This entity begins to erase the individuality that they both once possessed. The attraction (magnetism)between the two dwindles away (rapidly or over time). He failed to maintain “his” as she failed to maintain “hers.” The individual aspects (of self)that attracted them to one another has been abandoned for the collective unit. Thus, causing misery for the individuals. It has to be a delicate appreciation and promotion of the individuals that are the pillars that hold up the unit.

*It’s all based on the individuals needs.

17. R.oB. wrote:

Gigi,

I respect your opinion, but I don’t buy it. All individuals have needs we must satisfy. Love. Affirmation. Sex. But worshiping at the altar of individualism does not a good marriage make. A good marriage takes work day in and day out. Like raising a child. Or building a business. Or anything else of value. You can’t build anything with anyone else if all you are worried about is your needs. That’s “I love you because I need you.” Perfect divorce recipe. “I need you because I love you,” is far more difficult but infinitely more rewarding. It’s the difference independence and interdependence. Love without sacrifice is mere affection.

Take for example James’ “infidelity.” His needs were certainly served, but his deeper values spoke of sacrificing his personal interests for that of another person, his wife, and for the marriage he values above his personal needs. He is clearly independent enough to act in his own interests but he was mature enough to sublimate them for something he valued more. And since he does not control his wife, he is dependent on her to make their marriage work. That’s the crucial difference between independence and interdependence. It’s also the difference between 2 people in a marriage and two people making one.

This whole morph business is moot, you can’t give of yourself if there is no self to give.

18. R.oB. wrote:

P.S. On the magnetism/attraction business, please forgive me for being harsh, but I firmly believe this to be true. If a person isn’t independent enough to take responsibility for their relationships, how can they expect to have good ones?

19. james wrote:

gigi, attraction dwindles for two reasons: it was never really there in the first place, or a lack of imagination. as you age into a long-term relationship, it’s always important that you can still visualize your partner as the same person you married even if they physically, mentally, or emotionally are not.

gigi, i get what your saying about that morphing business, but i agree with r.ob that it’s not a healthy way to go. in fact, the first woman i ever slept with said that she loved me so much that she was “losing her identity” to me. i broke up with her almost immediately. man, she sure could sing, but i don’t want to be accused of taking anybody’s identity. much too heavy.

to get on top of r.ob.’s business metaphor, you (employee) can certainly have an us (employer) without losing your identity. in fact, in a long-term relationship, provided that you’ve been completely honest during the courtship, it’s preferable that you maintain your basic identity for the good of the company you are keeping.

however, you should realize that as you grow older, obviously, responsibilities change and so do the things we do and the places we go. with that in mind, identities may be required to shift slightly; but our basic personalities, if healthy, should and will not be altered.