1. Tanya wrote:

WATCHING THIS MADE ME MAD!

MAD AT YOU MARC!

WTF, WTF, WTF

2. Tanya wrote:

Marc,

I liked you because you are young, black, highly intelligent, and I use to think you were logical and true. I really want to continue liking you, but all of the utter sewage you’ve been spouting lately is making it exceedingly difficult.

I noticed you’ve dropped significant weight lately, and a lack of proper food will cause a breakdown in concentration.

How could you dare blame the government for ignorant, ghetto black men abandoning their children??? Are you smoking fog??? Or are you just hungry???

If Star Jones doesn’t want to treat you to dinner anymore I will gladly pick up the bill for you for as long as you need! Just let me know, b/c you need to eat to get your mind right.

3. Tanya wrote:

PS – I want to give Bill a high-five and Marc a V-8 smack in the forehead!

Never thought I would side with Bill over Marc.

4. Blaxx wrote:

Great discussion but you took an L, Dr. Hill. However, what stands out to me is the last thing you said regarding Obama’s pandering. You hit the nail on the head. I honestly wasn’t concerning myself with the presidential race until Friday’s madness, now I’m finding myself getting all up in the mix.

5. Piscean Princess wrote:

Now, Dr. Marc, I ain’t never mad at you for being critical of Obama & his politics. And I agree that he makes certain speeches to certain audiences for political advancement. But when you whittle it down to the message (fathers should take care of their offspring) I have a hard time spending a lot of time talking about the structural barriers that are in place.

Don’t get me wrong, I get that the way the child support system is set up is not always fair, but don’t you get to choose whether or not you make a child in the first place? Each individual can choose to partner with whomever they wish…and they can choose to take control of their birth control methods. They can also choose to be a part of the lives of the children they father. I tend to believe that most women would be willing to take some time spent, some afterschool pick-ups & drop offs, a few school supplies and some shoes over a check from the county that only comes if homeboy is working.

The message was about Father’s Day, not about changes that need to happen in public policy. And the bottom line is that if you make a baby, you need to do whatever is in your power to make sure that you are a visible, tangible part of that child’s life. Period.

6. Janet wrote:

Am I the only person who thinks Tanya is a stalker?

7. Tanya wrote:

Janet, B**** please!

Stalker how? Because I view his blog and post comments? Then you and everyone else on here qualifies.

8. Janet wrote:

Okay maybe the best adjective to describe you should have been unstable…ha

9. Blaxx wrote:

Ladies, Ladies. Don’t fight, there is plenty of Blaxx to go around….Whoops, this isn’t the club.

Anyway, don’t fight here.

10. Tanya wrote:

Unstable how?

Are you stable and intelligent enough to substantiate your ridiculous claim?

I can provide support for and substantiate all of my statements. That’s stability.

If you can’t provide support for and substantiate your statements, particularly your ignorant and baseless attacks against me, then you Janet are the unstable one.

11. Janet wrote:

You prove my point every time you type…

and Blaxx sweetie..no one is fighting…I just made an observation and commented accordingly….

12. Tanya wrote:

Blaxx,

I’m too pretty to fight!

13. clifton harrison wrote:

I agree with Marc, in the sense that the problem isn’t a simple solution (black men just need to take care of their children). YES, WE DO NEED TO….BUT…to ignore the other problems in society that have contributed to our understanding of what a man is (Whether it be what men think men should be or what women accept from men) is not fair.

Men didn’t all of a sudden stop wanting to raise their children, so it’s important to look at the factors that led to the unfortunate state we are in.

Marc pointed out the war on drugs and drug use, unemployment, etc. All of this is important (along with media’s portrayal of men and women and what’s acceptable) in understanding the problems of the lack of men raising their children, and problems in society in general

Clif

P.S., stop the back and forth Tanya and Janet…

14. Tanya wrote:

Prove what point Janet? Care to expound?

You have failed to ever offer a conceivable opinion on here.

I think you’re just jealous of how eloquently and thoroughly I convey my positions, so you just, in a fit of envy, lash out words at me that others, who know you, have used to describe you.

15. Tanya wrote:

Clif,

If one is unemployed, then they should not make babies.

If one is on drugs, then they may lack the ability to think clearly enough to avoid making babies. But after the birth, it’s laziness that causes them to abandon their babies.

The failure of black males to care for their children is a lack of personal responsibility, not societal or communal ills.

Marc’s argument is a poorly crafted excuse that only offers comfort for those who choose to abandon their children. If Marc maintains this argument it will lessen the motivation for black males to become responsible men and care for their children, b/c they will feel their failure is not their fault and therefore, acceptable or excused.

Also, Marc’s argument fails to contemplate or address that fact far too many of these dead-beat dads are employed and drug free, yet are repeat offenders, with multiple baby mamas, who go through great extremes to avoid paying child support or to deny that the children are theirs.

The problem is not the government; it is the lack of morals and ethics in the black community. Period, full stop!

16. mel wrote:

Agree with Tanya.

17. Logic wrote:

“Marc’s argument is a poorly crafted excuse that only offers comfort for those who choose to abandon their children. If Marc maintains this argument it will lessen the motivation for black males to become responsible men and care for their children, b/c they will feel their failure is not their fault and therefore, acceptable or excused.”

I agree with Tanya here. At what point do we hold black men accountable for not seeing outside of their situation? The institutional barriers that Marc discussed ARE alive and real. But at what point do we, as black people, move beyond excuses and towards solutions.

I’m sure that all of us who visit the site have endured a lot of what Marc discussed but we have overcome. I am tired of folks who advocate a “kid gloves” approach to addressing our “less fortunate” brothers and sisters. Those who chastise Bill Cosby and Obama for speaking the truth in the public square are silly.

I agree that simply reprimanding those “ghetto” brothers and sisters without also working to give back and educate this group is ot a good thing, I don’t think that Obama or Cosby are guilty of this.

In the immortal words of Charlie Murphy, “We got’s to do better!”

18. wouldn't you love to know? wrote:

we are all grown women in here right?……then please, act as such….

i have to agree with Tanya. although Doc, i do see from your POV…i think it’s ridiculous to blame the government for the 70% of babies that have been born out of wed lock….absolutely ridiculous….i understand where your’re coming from when you say that child support, drugs, etc, play a huge part in why Men can’t step up and be fathers…..but to me that’s bullshit.
it’s no excuse for a man to not be apart of their child(ren)’s life. people seem to think, money is what qualifies people as parents. although it is a great benefactor, it’s not required to be a fuckin’ PARENT! i’m tired of negros using lame ass excuses, for reasons they can’t take their child to the park….shit, that’s FREE…or why they can’t throw a ball at them, and show them how to swing a bat…

what happened to walks, and stories???? Shit, good ol’ quality time??? TLC???….is the government responsible for that???
when are our Men really going to stand back, and check themselves???? it’s time for some of these negros to quit this weak shit, and step up to the plate…period.

all what you’ve stated, are just weak excuses that men take, and run with….it’s way deeper than the government…please, i wish it was that simple….

19. Bitter Brother wrote:

I never thought I would side with Bill O’Reilly, but Stevie Wonder can see you lost that one… And it was by a landslide. At some point you have to temper your fervor for social activism, and become more balanced in the causes you take up. In ardour of the debate, you lose focus on the big picture. Yes, the child support laws are Draconian (I am a witness), but to use that reality to excuse deadbeats is unacceptable. we make too many excuses to perpetuate victimhood. Please stop supplying deadbeat n*****(That’s right I aint burying ish) with plausibly intelligent arguments for not taking care of their kids.

20. Clifton Harrison wrote:

I’m not saying that black men or men in general should not be held accountable, what i’m saying, and what i think Marc was trying to convey was that the “lack of morals and ethics” (and the mindstate of men) cannot solely be attributed to men just waking up one day and not wanting to be responsible.

Tanya, You say that that black men’s failure in raising children is a personal lack or responsibility,

and Logic, you say that we need to move beyond those excuses, but the reality is that we are in the category of the enlightened, preaching to the choir.

THIS is why I applaud Obama, because his voice has the ability to reach everyone, and not just the people that realize what the problem is.

But, i definetly don’t condone Obama’s actions or anyone elses
if it is simply to JUST tell men (especially Black men what they are doing wrong) WITHOUT showing them throught actions (and not just tell them) how they can and need to “Do better”.

While Obama is a great example, much like his entire campaign, the strength lies in the grassroots. The “Ghetto” brothers as well as sisters need examples laterally, others that are “just like them” being good fathers.

So the question i pose is this, where does it start? Where do they get that example? I know i looked to my father for a basic model of being a good father. I am fortunate. But what about the people growing up without fathers? or fathers that don’t respect their mothers? or have had different men in and out their house their entire lives? Or 5 or 6 different siblings (all with different fathers)?

It’s not so simple to just say “Do better”.

that being said, once again i say, Black men and men in general MUST be more responsible and stop this terrible cycle, BUT IT’S NOT A SIMPLE FIX, NOR CAN THE BLAME BE SOLELY ATTRIBUTED TO THE BLACK MAN.

and Tanya, it takes two to make a baby.

21. Clifton Harrison wrote:

And i don’t understand how you guys can say “yeah, the are alot of things else wrong, but it doesn’t matter, deadbeat dad’s just need to do better”.

If you acknowledge that their are alot of other problems with society that make it difficult for men to be responsible fathers, yet dismiss it and just blame the men, do you also feel that way about racism or sexism?

Do you simply blame people of color or women for not being treated fairly in America (and the world)? that even though people of color or women have never had a level playing field with whites or men, that they just need to “Do better”?

22. John wrote:

Marc is correct when he says that we should not “let government off the hook.” But he can’t see government’s true culpability.

The social programs of the 1960s — implemented in good faith with an honest desire to lift people out of poverty — actually led us to where we are today. They are a perfect example that “you get what you pay for” … and when you pay people to not work, to not get married, to have lots of children, well, you shouldn’t be surprised that you are rewarded with that behavior.

Government handouts — especially when they are institutionalized across generations — are never the answer.

So here we are, 40-plus years past the Great Society, and we’ve gone from stable but poor two-parent families that worked and sacrificed to build a better life for their children to 70-80 percent of black children born out of wedlock, poverty even more deeply entrenched in some communities, and entire generations giving up on the education provided them that could make a difference.

The truth is that we failed those people by convincing them that the government held the keys to their future.

23. Piscean Princess wrote:

Clifton,

Making changes to the structural problem that allegedly prevent men from being fathers could take years.

It takes 2 seconds to pick up the phone and call your child and ask them what they learned in school…tell them you love them. As someone mentioned earlier, taking your child to the park is free. Offering to take your child so that his or her mother can have a free night doesn’t require any kind of undo-ing of public policy or public misconceptions or the drug trade.

And yes, I absolutely say that women & men of color in general need to just do better while the Dr. Marc’s of the world work to change ideas & public policy. Absolutely.

And, yes, it does take 2 to make a baby…and when the subject is mothers who abandon their children or fall down miserably on the job of parenting the same scolding applies to them. I got no love for women who get pregnant for sport or because they just choose not to use birth control or to trap the men they are “dating”. But everyone has choices. Everyone gets to choose who they have sex with, with the full knowledge and understanding that sex can and will lead to pregnancy, which can and will lead to a human being who needs to be cared for for many years.

24. Tanya wrote:

Well Said Piscean Princess!

25. *M* wrote:

Not having a job is not a reason for just being in the child life. Seeing them everyday, calling, just being there. It takes more than an income to be a father.
Im actully going to agree with Bill on this one **Shock**

26. Bitter Brother wrote:

Raise your hands if you believe the government will ever shift their interests to provide a framework to “encourage” fatherhood…If your hand is up, wait 4 them to stop unabashedly treating us like second rate citizens too. I swear we squander intellectual energy on the most futile discussions. Desire of fatherhood isn’t a learned or coerced idea that has to be forced upon a man. Either you have it or you don’t. Regardless of financial, social, or familial history, those who value fatherhood JUST MAKE IT HAPPEN! Stop excusing these n***** and stop condemning those who lash out at thes dudes. We will always have the greatest obstacles til’ Jesus comes back for 4 us. Still there is no excuse to not do what you have to, and so be it.

27. Piscean Princess wrote:

B.B.

Church!

Encouraging fatherhood in the Black community would mean forsaking the prison industrial complex.

Ain’t gonna happen. We gotta do it ourselves. One child at a time.

28. Tanya wrote:

John,

“…when you pay people to not work, to not get married, to have lots of children, well, you shouldn’t be surprised that you are rewarded with that behavior.”

“The truth is that we failed those people by convincing them that the government held the keys to their future.”

This is true! Opposition to the welfare system is one of the main reasons why I’m a Republican.

But again reliance on welfare is not the government’s fault. It is again an issue of personal responsibility. If black people had more pride and a stronger sense of self responsibility they wouldn’t want hand-outs, they would want to work and provide for themselves.

But they are so caught up on this “the gov’t owes me 40 acres and a mule” thing that they sit on their rare and milk the systems for all they can get, and suffer as people and parents in the process! Sick and Sad!

29. Tanya wrote:

B.B. & Piscean,

Bless ya’ll!!!

30. clifton harrison wrote:

I don’t disagree with any of the things you say fathers need to do. I personally become fustrated everytime i hear my peers or family tell me they are so proud of me being a good father. It needs to be standard. We are on the same wavelength, but i just disagree in how some expect the men (young black men especially) to easily adopt a new mindstate, and not take a generation to improve just as it will take the societal systems years to be corrected.

Taking your kid to the park, calling, those little things seem so easy when you have the mindstate to understand that those things are what you need to be doing, but I’m not sure that our young brothers see it that way.

And in regards to the woman’s responsibility. If women also take more responsibility in their choices of who they have sexual relationships, how they protect themselves, that is an equally helpful measure in making sure that when they do have children, it is with someone who is mature and responsible enough to raise a child.

I just feel that getting more black men to be fathers is much more complicated, difficult, and complex than they need to “stop being deadbeats, make a phone call, and do better”.

Bitter Brother,

if the young men do not see strong black fathers and positive examples of how fathers should raise their children, then it’s highly unlikely that they will have motivation or desire to be a good father. It’s not just as simple as you have it or you don’t. When you were born, you didn’t know i’m going to be a good father when i grow up.

Clif

31. clifton harrison wrote:

“If black people had more pride and a stronger sense of self responsibility they wouldn’t want hand-outs, they would want to work and provide for themselves”

Tanya, wow. Where do you think the Black pride went? What do you think happen to that pride and strong sense (The Black Panther movement) to lead us to where we are today?

Before answering, think about the Crack era, War on drugs, Blacks in prison, families being torn apart.

32. Logic wrote:

“And i don’t understand how you guys can say “yeah, the are alot of things else wrong, but it doesn’t matter, deadbeat dad’s just need to do better”.

Clifton, I’m not sayin that it doesn’t matter, but rather “we must move ahead in spite of” the strutural obstacles in place that might make it harder for us as black people.

33. Tanya wrote:

In the District of Columbia, there was/is an extraordinarily high black on black crime rate. For years there was no new initiates or policies executed in a hurry to eliminate or reduce this.

But when the violence and crime started to spill into the white areas of DC, and blacks started killing and robbing whites at a high rate and they realized that white people started to become the target of black bastards and black deadbeat dads, they rushed to resolution.

The DC gov’t is literally paying black men to marry their baby mamas and paying black couples to buy houses. They know that if the black man has a wife and a house and kids, they are less likely to be on the streets committing violent crimes.

I think it is a matter of time before this type of initiative spills into NYC, Detroit, Philly, Chicago; but only if white people start dying in large numbers as result of black crime in these areas.

I am NOT inciting anything!

34. Logic wrote:

Clif,

I definitely agree that it is a mentality thing. And I don’t think that it is as simple as “doing better”. But at what point are we allowed to say “wake the F@%! UP! ? That’s why I am such a strong proponent for education and exposure. So many of our brothers and sisters are so caught up in their small world (baby daddys, new rims, fly gear, clubbin) that they don’t take the time to reflect on what is most important in life-being happy.

Once you recognize that you want to be happy, there has to be a systematic elimination of those things which cause misery.

A big part of it is that most of these brothers and sisters don’t know what will really make them happy. And because of the influence of the media, most believe happiness is derived through the accumulation of material goods and fame.

35. Tanya wrote:

Cliff,

Thank you for raising a very good question (#30).

I think there are a lot of possible answers. Among the “Crack era, War on drugs, Blacks in prison, families being torn apart” I think the desire for white woman, and the selfish desire to “explore” the white man’s world/lifestyle, steered black men away from their homes and responsibilities.

36. Tanya wrote:

“wake the F@%! UP!”

“So many of our brothers and sisters are so caught up in their small world (baby daddys, new rims, fly gear, clubbin) that they don’t take the time to reflect on what is most important in life-being happy.”

Cosign on Logic

37. Bitter Brother wrote:

Clif,

I respectfully disagree with you. How do you, then, account for the many relevant fathers who have been products of families where fathers have been absent? We learn from omission just as effectively as commission. Culturally and traditionally, styles of good parenting vary, so of course we would have difficulty assuming the Anglo-model of good parenting, many expect,without a template. Now I hate to allude to a subpar rapper like The Game, but during a Father’s Day special he made it emphatically clear that he had no model for fatherhood growing up in foster care, but he learned! He just exemplifies my point. You come off as being an ideologue. What policy would you implement to encourage fatherhood if you were POTUS?

38. carisma wrote:

Marc,

Im gonna have to disagree with you on that statement about black men blaming the government for not raising their children. I am very critical of the government, but they aren’t the one at total blame. Stop using the government as a scapegoat for all things bad in black communities. We need to blame ourselves for trusting white people (the government) and wanting to imitate how we think “white people live”. Even, though they are responsible for creating a caste system against people of color or people living in urban areas. The lacking of responsible black men is just a product of the caste system.

Many factors contribute to why black men aren’t raising their
children. The top two factors are slavery and our ancestral traditions. In Africa, it is customary for black families to birth multiple children. Men that do not take care of their families are looked down upon in Africa and it is the opposite in America. Europeans exploited black fertility for their selfish reasons. In turn, the Europeans supplanted an idealism that black men are treated as cattle (a black bull) and breed in that way. Black men were still practicing their ancestral duties of raising their families, even as slaves. The abandonment of their children only began after the Emancipation of Slavery when black men could not find jobs to support their children. Since it was shameful to not be able to support their children, many opted to just abandon them.

Another issue is that black men are using their mistrust and hatred towards black women as an excuse to not raise their children. Its sad to say, but many black men do NOT want to support or be involved in their child’s life. The government is to blame for creating and instigating the mistrust amongst black men and women by turning them against each other under the child support system. Women are encouraged to not need men to be involved in raising their children because Uncle Sam will take of you. Uncle Sam will give you housing, help buy groceries, and make sure you get money monthly. Creating an idealism of using black men as money machines, thus perpetuating the golddigger and baby mama stereotypes. This has created tension between men and women.

The government is responsible for slavery, not enforcing laws that helped black men obtain good paying jobs after slavery, not persecuting suspects in black male murders, and the distribution of narcotics specifically to urban areas. All added to the issue of the break up or break down of the black family system. Black men have individual responsibility also. Their responsibility is to teach and understand their history in order to stop this problem. If a black man does not care to learn or change this, ultimately, he cannot blame anyone else for his ignorance. Love yourself, love your women, and love your people. Do this in remembrance of He.

39. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Bitter Brother,

The Game, and other men who are able to be the opposite of what their father’s were to them are exceptions to the rule. And he stated that he learned, not that it was just “in him”, that he just “Had it”. That is exactly what i am saying. We have to teach the youth, so if I am being an ideologue for that, cool.

Policy, i don’t know, i don’t believe I have enough life experience to create policy for an entire nation, but i think that one of the most influential things in the US is the media (for blacks music and tv). So having more positive messages and portrayals of black men (like the parenthood, etc. and within hip hop) would have a substantial effect. Lil Wayne is one of the most popular rappers currently. Imagine if he would have balanced Carter 3 with a song about how he takes care of his daughter? that’s only a small suggestion to a huge problem that i don’t have the end all be all answer to.

Tanya, with your thinking…i think i’ll agree to disagree.

I definetly agree we need to wake up. I just feel that it may be a more effective way in waking up the youth than just what has been mentioned.

We MUST move forward, regardless of the situations and obstacles we are faced with, but we can’t leave behind the people who struggle and then criticize them because they aren’t able to follow suit (regardless of whether it’s their own mentality holding them back or its the societal structure that defeats them).

Clif

40. Marc Lamont Hill wrote:

I’m not sure what video that some of are you watching, but at no point did i say that there was a good excuse to avoid parental responsibilities such as paying child support and spending time with a child. At no point did I say that the government should do the job of parents. In fact, I didn’t even disagree with most of the things that Obama said in the church. At one point, I specifically said that individual responsibility is ESSENTIAL. At 3:33 I explicitly said that there is no excuse to abandon your children.My point of contention was, as I stated in the segment, that you have to “ALSO raise critical structural questions.”

All of these comments about there being no excuse for not “taking your child to the park” or “ghetto fathers leaving their kids” are straw arguments. Are they true? Yes. But they’re beside my point which was that we have to ALSO (not instead of) change public policy to accommodate responsible behavior. For example, if someone comes home from prison and gets a legal job paying 200 dollars a week. If they have arrearage from their incarceration it is possible that, after taxes and child support, the individual only has 50-80 dollars left. He has to find food, clothing, shelter, etc. with these limited funds, not to mention current child support. Such circumstances effectively dissuade people from getting a LEGAL job. Does this excuse abandoning your kid or not paying support? No. In fact, I’ve written extensively to the contrary (e.g., http://blogs.theroot.com/blogs/downfromthetower/archive/2008/04/07/the-child-support-debate-continues-call.aspx) . What it does mean is that good behavior must be accompanied by good policy.

What’s my solution? Glad you asked. We could start with government subsidies and debt forgiveness to encourage and reward good behavior. We could also use stricter child enforcement policy to punish negligent, unresponsive, and outright trifling parents. This isn’t about avoiding, understating, or excusing bad behavior. This is about considering the government’s role in problem solving…

As far as the ad hominem remarks, I will only give them “half a bar”…

41. Clifton Harrison wrote:

yeah….what Marc Said!!! lol

and the Hov reference, Classic!!

Clif

42. Logic wrote:

LOL! You only get half a bar…F!@# ya’ll N*****!

43. Bitter Brother wrote:

I’m pretty sure my comments don’t qualify as ad hominem, but I’ll say this. Sure you didn’t explicitly excuse negligent fathers of their responsibility, but to say these are straw comments are naive for a publlic person such as yourself who understands the preeminence of connotation over denotation. The way you structured your argument was inferior to Bill O’Reilly’s; and mine for that matter. Pick your battles better. You make great points on the rebound, but the initial contention I had is why would you exhaust intelligent debate condemning those comments made by Barak Obama?

44. carisma wrote:

Marc,

Okay..now we are getting somewhere. I would agree with your solution to help mend the ties between black mothers and fathers. Black men shouldn’t be “rewarded” for doing their duty, but the government should be lenient towards those that make payments on time and are spending time with their children. They should enforce laws to help decrease the cost of childcare and laws to make sure that all healthy mothers are working. It is not fair for men to work while taking care of a woman that is not or have never been your wife. This would allow section 8 and welfare to not be abused to the degree that it is today. Welfare and section 8 should be extended to single fathers and the elderly, and not just single mothers.

45. Tanya wrote:

“We could start with government subsidies and debt forgiveness to encourage and reward good behavior.”

Oh Marc, you are a loony leftist, damn.

I paid all my taxes in full and on time. I obeyed all the traffic laws coming into the office today and I haven’t killed or robbed anyone. Where’s my reward for good behavior?

Your position and suggestions sound like the soft bigotry of low expectations.

If a black man committed a crime, went to jail, and can only get a job paying him $200 a week b/c he’s a convict, and uneducated, whose fault is that???? If all he is left with is $50 after taxes and child support, tough cookie! If he lived criminal free, went to school, and married the mother of his child, they he wouldn’t be in that situation.

I expect more from my Black people. I expect all Black men to use their brains and get good jobs and take care of their families. I want them to be punished for not doing this, and $50 a week is appropriate punishment.

In essence Marc, you don’t want to reward good behavior; you want to reward bad behavior b/c you expect blacks to conduct worst behavior and don’t believe blacks are capable of any better. – Soft Bigotry.

Marc, I’m disappointed.

46. Bitter Brother wrote:

Tanya,

Careful! You better have your ducks in a row. I’m sure Marc, and those of his ilk (Clif), will probably retort in said fashion about paragraph #5:

That you’ve failed to consider that the (in)justice system in America is rooted in bigotry and double-standards that render justice to be a figment for Black males…that the fact that we’re disproportionately incarcerated evinces this…that continuos gov’t aggrandizement is the answer…

All true, but I am a staunch believer in self-determination. If it wasn’t reality I wouldn’t be where I am, and neither would any other Black male who deems their life to be legitimately sucessfull, despite the environment we were reared in.

47. Bitter Brother wrote:

Correction: All true except mega-gov’t

48. Tanya wrote:

Further, Dr. Hill,

I believe the only ad hominem argument is you against the government. The purpose of public policy is not to “accommodate responsible behavior” but rather dissuade bad behavior.

But I guess that’s were anthropology and political science collide.

49. Tanya wrote:

B.B.,

Disproportionate incarceration of blacks is not soft bigotry, it’s hard bigotry. Some black people only recognize and object to the hard. (Dr. Marc Lamont Hill (maybe))

I rail against them both!

50. econwhat wrote:

I say be careful where those dollar bills go, stop reaching into your pocket pulling out 20’s to support the same clowns who denigrate your race, your women, your culture, use it instead to provide music lessons or something else beneficial for your kid, relative or the less fortunate.

I have a friend whose 22 years old who has worked since he was 16 – landscaping, painting, handy man, and slight carpentry work. He has a degree in civil engineering and he and several family members built a house on some land the grandparents bought a while ago, they made sure it was ready in time to offer it to him as a graduation gift. His gradparents were over-joyed! He was never idle if he didn’t have a book in his hand he had a hammer or paint brush. He didn’t “hang-out” or splurge on food – matter-of-fact he ate once a day cause he grew up that way. The guy is super strong, I once heard he lifted an extremely heavy steel beam alone. The fact is “it’s impossible” was never a part of his vocabulary. He took the “no excuses” route to moving toward his dreams without any ill-gotten demons clouding up his future. Oh, and did I mention his family is extremely poor. There is not jealousy, envy, or selfishness in that family cicle from what I observed.

This may be off-topic cause they don’t go around making babies either.

51. Piscean Princess wrote:

Dr. Marc

I guess this conversation will have to go the way of the Cosby debates of yesteryear. Agree to disagree.

52. carisma wrote:

Tanya and others,

You are being selfish. All of your statements come back to “you”. The world doesn’t revolve around you. This world is so full of “I” and “me” people. Most Americans pay taxes just like you, so you are special, welcome to the fan club.

Here is a scenario, If you were a single mother and the government did away with section 8, welfare, and you couldn’t get a good paying job, how would you survive? and then, if the government said “just because you made a mistake and got pregnant and can’t afford it, isnt our problem deal with it” , how would you react? I bet you would be singing a whole different tune. Men are put in that same predicament when released from prison, aren’t making enough money, paying child support and trying to survive.
Note: that I am only referring to men that try to support their children and are attempting to be involved in their children’s life.

Men released from prison deserve the right to support themselves and their children with sufficient pay. If they have skills and education, let them use it and allow them opportunities to better themselves.

If this country is so concerned with being “Christians” and forgiving people of their wrongdoing, they need to practice what they preach. Oops I forgot, all that Christian value system talk gets thrown out of the window when black people are the subject. Stop using the laws of the whites to justify their racial and social caste system. It is unfair to deprive people of their rights of a better life whether the individual is an ex con or not. If they serve their time and are freed, they deserve respect and opportunity as anyone else. Im not here to get into the different circumstances of crimes committed, that is what you need to take up with your elected officials. I can talk about constitutional rights. Constitutionally, it does state that individuals can loose their right to vote and bear arms if imprisoned, but it does not give lawmakers the permission to keep individuals from their pursuit of happiness. Bitter, hateful, spiteful, and miserable people always try to make hard for someone that is trying to do better. The true meaning of being a HATER!

53. Garrett wrote:

Debt forgiveness, MLH? Two wrongs don’t make a right.

54. Miss Martin wrote:

I agree with Clif an Marc on this one here…but then again yall already kno by now just how much I want to overthrow the gov’t and that gov’t owes me and my people everything they got anyway..

55. www.rayandsamara.com wrote:

I’m not buying any of this crap at all. We as a people need to do better. period.

As Bill O’Reilly pointed out, 40 years ago the black community lived under much different circumstances than what we live in now yet as a people we have digressed 60 years. Lets stop blaming something — drugs, the government, social programs, etc — and get back to the communities we once had. We were up against the wall in so many different ways yet the Black community supported their own businesses, banks, hotels, etc. We had our own schools with our own teachers and we supported each other as a family. If the father went missing or wasnt around, we still had the local father figure, big momma, etc. What ever it was, we figured out a way to do it, and survive.

Somewhere throughout the decades WE HAVE GOTTEN LAZY and HAVE RELIED ON THE GOVERNMENT AND WHITE FOLKS to provide us with so-called ‘equal opportunities’. Instead of THINKING AND BEING RESOURCEFUL, we’ve become relaxed and let the government and media control our minds. So why are we looking to the government to help us with ways to care for our families and communities? The government never gave a shit about black folk (and wont after Obama is elected). WE HAVE TO DO THIS FOR OURSELVES!

and Marc, I love you dearly, but you are so wrong on this. And you are becoming more and more like other self proclaimed Black Community Speakers who yap and yap about the problems of Black America and constantly promote a farfetched solution when there is a much more simpler solution that can be acheived. But then again, if you promoted the right solution and it actually worked — you would be out of a day job. . . .

56. Bitter Brother wrote:

Wow! What country is concerned with being Christian? The fact that our country’s historic observance of Christianity is a hypocrisy shouldn’t be news. What a poor argument…you assume we are all Christian.

Who denounces reasonable gov’t intervention in the scenario you illustrated? Where people like you and I diverge is where you look to gov’t to solve every social ill, I don’t. It can’t even carry out fundamental functions like preserve democracy(Iraq) and fiscal responsibilities, but you expect it to promote sweeping social change. Get real!

Just as well as we know, many of these former inmates know that the penile system is harsh and unjust, yet they persist in criminal activity. Stop sympathizing with stupidity. We all face difficult decisions each day that can potentially alter our life. Some choose to disregard the gravity of these, and break the law. We’re not arguing fairness. We’re arguing practicality, and your leftist-Utopia will never be.

57. Bitter Brother wrote:

That’s to you Carisma by the way

58. mike wrote:

We can’t forget that the playing field is not level for men of color, like me. There are a lot systems in place that discourage success in school and pursuit of legitimate career paths. I believe Dr. Hill is referring to these systems such as the inner city school sytems (and many other systems such as the legal system…), which is failing black men. Yes, there a many programs such as Big Brothers Big Sisters (who need mentors by the way) church community programs etc…but, the programs are all failing to combat the bigger systems in place that are eating up the black community. I’m an educator myself in a high poverty inner city school and I have first hand interaction with our families on a daily basis. As you know, Title I is supposed to close the achievement gap and level the playing field for our young men. But, they still struggle with the basics…coming to school on time, focusing on work, having the appropriate parental guidance and accountability and so these young men grow up and fall into the same trap: hoop dreams, drugs, sex, babies. No skills. But, many of our young men do make it. If Barack Obama had of asked me, I would have given him a list of 100 responsible fathers with high achieving sons & daughters to showcase on Father’s day instead of the same ole doom and gloom. Just imagine the impact of that image, that message on Father’s day across the country…..now, that would be change I could believe in…if only I would have seen it.

59. John wrote:

Stop using the laws of the whites to justify their racial and social caste system.

The laws of “the whites”?

Exactly which laws of “the whites” would you like “the blacks” to ignore?

We could start with government subsidies and debt forgiveness to encourage and reward good behavior.

Black illegitmacy rates are roughly 70 percent overall and higher than that in some majority black cities.

Marc, do you believe that those amazingly scary numbers are the result of ex-cons not being able to afford to pay child support? 70 percent?

That’s an awful lot of ex-cons fathering children. Or a few ex-cons fathering an awful lot of children.

Seriously, this is a deeply ingrained cultural issue that goes beyond “debt forgiveness.” It is the result of flawed government policy and should be viewed as a warning sign of what can happen when you try and and engineer social change.

60. www.rayandsamara.com wrote:

Now I agree with you on that Mike. I think Obama used the wrong Sunday to talk about black men. My pastor did that last year for father’s day and Ray and I didnt even stay for the closing prayer.

But would you say that being an educator, you have an opportunity to bring change to the community where you teach? To be a role model for the boys who dont have fathers? Or are you waiting for Title 1 or No Child Left Behind to make you do that?

61. natural nubian wrote:

Tanya, if you are a black woman, i pray none of your children ever make any mistake, or are found in a predicament that’s based soley upon the color of their skin and discrimination, resulting in them being punished and held back by the govt. your #44 comment really showed how selfish and narrow-minded u are.
now i’m not saying that being a neglectful father is not a choice one makes, versus if one is in the wrong situation and the wrong time. but the govt punishing you for your decision has the same result. and for you to say “tough luck” is beyond heartless. should deadbeats be checked? yes, but to the point u are suggesting is ridiculous. and trust me, your “solution” will only lead to more problems. how can you cosign on leaving an individual with sub-standard living conditions? sorry, but no matter how much one does not pay their obligated child support does not mean they should be left with scraps to then feed themself.
the solution should be to ultimately repair our broken community and uplift the less fortunate, not punish by any means necessary OUR BROTHERS!

62. natural nubian wrote:

Tanya, if you are a black woman, i pray none of your children ever make any mistake, or are found in a predicament that’s based soley upon the color of their skin and discrimination, resulting in them being punished and held back by the govt. your #44 comment really showed how selfish and narrow-minded u are.
now i’m not saying that being a neglectful father is not a choice one makes, versus if one is in the wrong situation and the wrong time. but the govt punishing you for your decision has the same result. and for you to say “tough luck” is beyond heartless. should deadbeats be checked? yes, but to the point u are suggesting is ridiculous. and trust me, your “solution” will only lead to more problems. how can you cosign on leaving an individual with sub-standard living conditions? sorry, but no matter how much one does not pay their obligated child support does not mean they should be left with scraps to then feed themself.
the solution should be to ultimately repair our broken community and uplift the less fortunate, not punish OUR BROTHERS by any means necessary.
Tanya, if you are a black woman, i pray none of your children ever make any mistake, or are found in a predicament that’s based soley upon the color of their skin and discrimination, resulting in them being punished and held back by the govt. your #44 comment really showed how selfish and narrow-minded u are.
now i’m not saying that being a neglectful father is not a choice one makes, versus if one is in the wrong situation and the wrong time. but the govt punishing you for your decision has the same result. and for you to say “tough luck” is beyond heartless. should deadbeats be checked? yes, but to the point u are suggesting is ridiculous. and trust me, your “solution” will only lead to more problems. how can you cosign on leaving an individual with sub-standard living conditions? sorry, but no matter how much one does not pay their obligated child support does not mean they should be left with scraps to then feed themself.
the solution should be to ultimately REPAIR our broken community and uplift the less fortunate, not punish OUR BROTHERS by any means necessary.

63. natural nubian wrote:

AWWEE HELL NAW! DOC GET A DAYUM DELETE/EDIT BUTTON MAN!

my bad yall.

64. james wrote:

john, the history of america is based upon the engineering of social change, beginning with the declaration of independence.

65. carisma wrote:

Bitter Brother,

I know that the entire US of A is not Christian, but that is this nation’s religion of choice. This country was founded by Protestants, Catholics, etc. which all fall under the Christian umbrella. Christian ideas are what they used to form and encourage the development of America. Has there ever been a Jewish or Muslim president of America? I don’t so.

My point was to call white people’s bluff on their idealisms. If you dont think this country is ran by Christians, u are fooling yourself. We are free to practice any religion only because the colonies wanted freedom from European religious dictatorship on Christianity. The founders of the country didn’t know that other religions would penetrate American culture the way it did. We are only free to serve other religions because the forefounders did not think to define the religion they practiced, which was a good mistake.

Whether you are Jewish, Christian, or Muslim all have common beliefs that everyone should be treated as equal. All teach about forgiving others for their sins. But the followers do not abide by the teachings of their religion. Which is hypocritical to me.

66. John wrote:

No doubt, james. And some of it works. But often there are unintended consequences.

I think our approach to poverty — designed and implemented with the proper intentions — has resulted in disastrous cultural and societal changes that have harmed generations of Americans.

67. Garrett wrote:

carisma:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

The writers of the constitution were, in fact, giving citizens the right to chose their own religion.

68. wouldn't you love to know? wrote:

“What’s my solution? Glad you asked. We could start with government subsidies and debt forgiveness to encourage and reward good behavior. We could also use stricter child enforcement policy to punish negligent, unresponsive, and outright trifling parents. This isn’t about avoiding, understating, or excusing bad behavior. This is about considering the government’s role in problem solving…

As far as the ad hominem remarks, I will only give them “half a bar”…”

and what a LOVELY solution that is, might i add….but the reality is, that’s never going to happen…again Marc, I see where you’re coming from, i really do, and at the end of the day, we’re actually making the same point…..OBAMA IS A TYPICAL POLITCIAN…..my friend, you have proved that point exceptionally…MY point is, who gives a rat’s ass????? should we expect him to be anything more? i mean, i don’t mean to come off sooo rude, but should we??? i don’t think we should, because if we did, what difference would it make??? no this isn’t a defeatist attitude, it’s a, “we already know what this shit is really hitting for, so can we move on?”, attitude….

i understand it’s a dirty job, but someone has to do it…and i commend you for doing it, but don’t just sweep some of these comments under the rug as “ad hominem remarks”….because just like some of us who’ve miss understood the debate, they’re tons of men that will miss understand you as well, and use all of what you’ve said as an EXCUSE….and at the end of the day, we still have alot of brothers, with a lot of excuses, and ain’t shit ad hominem about that….shit, did you ever stop to think, that maybe because of the ratio of men that are dead-beats, it is the reason why the government has to be so tough on these brothers to begin with??(ewwwwww, siding with the government, does not feel cute)…think about that..you can’t talk about one, and not talk about the other….to me it’s a trifling ass cycle, that WE must get ourselves out of, no one else….

at the end of the day, i do see the big picture that you’re painting. the point is very vivid, actual and factual. very cute…

69. Bitter Brother wrote:

Carisma,

“Christian ideas are what they used to form and encourage the development of America.” Yeah… like slavery right?

I never refuted that the country was founded by so-called Christians. I simply make the point that under the guise of Christianity, all forms of gov’t policy sanctioned evils like slavery and the subjugation of women. If you deem someone a Christian because some claims to be, then by all means. If you are truly aware of American history, you know that there is no American religion you speak of per the Constitution. Therefore neither de jure or de facto is Christianity our national religion. Point is: this is an ABSOLUTELY POINT-LESS discussion. What does that have to do with dead-beat fathers?

70. carisma wrote:

John,

Laws of the whites that allow men of color to be penalized improperly to serve a black genocidal purpose.
ex:

Drugs crimes with sentences harsher than black on black homicidal crimes and black on black homicides with light sentences compared to a black killing a white.

This setup gives the impression that selling drugs is worse than killing a black man and a white life more valuable than a black life. Black life is not valued by the law, so how do you think it is gonna be valued in the street? The reasons the government is so harsh on drug crimes are because they are upset that drugs have infiltrated the middle and upper class white communities and the government cannot legally tax illegal drugs to show their involvement in the drug trafficking system. The only benefit harsh drug sentencing has to the government is to kill two birds with one stone. They can put black men in prison for a long time and take their rights to vote and bear arms when released, which leave black men defenseless. Add no job or low pay to that equation and you have black men that give up on life go back to the streets.
Note: I am only defending men that want to do better and are trying to do so.

I am against any plan to destroy the morale of black people. I understand that there are ignorant black men in the country, but I know so many intelligent black men that are not given encouragement or opportunities to thrive in a society that is against him. Ignorance can be defeated with education, opportunity, and encouragement to do better regardless of an individual’s background or past transgressions. Some of our most brilliant and successful black men come from the slums, prison, or broken homes (Malcolm X, MLK wasn’t always a good man, Tupac, Jay Z). So, to look down an ex con or any black man from the slums is unfair. Stop being self loathers by hating your own kind by wanting to keep them from thriving. That is what white folks love to see. N*g*e*s hating on each other because it makes the white folks’ job easier. Wise up people, this is bigger than Barack Obama or America. Our fight is against hidden white supremacy and silent black genocide.

71. Miss Martin wrote:

Wise up people, this is bigger than Barack Obama or America. Our fight is against hidden white supremacy and silent black genocide.”

i like that one…

72. DCI74 wrote:

Wow this was a heated discussion to say the least and I’m glad I was running my summer youth program than engaging in this back and forth. Good points Marc (nice Jigga reference) but you took a major L from Bill O’Really-Now.

Clif I totally hear what you’re saying about fatherhood, which is why I feel so blessed to have been raised by a very involved and good father from birth. Now while I don’t yet have children of my own I recognize the role I play in my community among the young men and women I work with so I use that role as an opportunity to not only show a positive example of black manhood but also share many of the gifts of knowledge my father continues to bestow upon me. Am I able to reach all of them? Of course and it would be foolish to think otherwise. Does it have some long-term impact? Sure but I can’t be overly concerned about what the government should or should not be doing because at the end of the day the “government” to these kids is an intangible figure that is outside of their reach meanwhile I’m that “lateral example” they can reach out, touch and identify with. My scope of influence may be small but to me it’s better than doing nothing at all. Seeing them broaden their horizons, raise their critical consciousness, and dream big to me is one of the greatest rewards of all. Plus if my impact causes one of them to decide post-college to give back to their community in some capacity then a difference is truly being made in a substantive way.

One love to my “Theodores” (Ghostface nod, let’s see who gets it…)

73. DCI74 wrote:

*that should say “Am I able to reach all of them? Of course not and it would be foolish to think otherwise.”

74. econwhat wrote:

carisma says:
“Here is a scenario, If you were a single mother and the government did away with section 8, welfare, and you couldn’t get a good paying job, how would you survive? and then, if the government said “just because you made a mistake and got pregnant and can’t afford it, isnt our problem deal with it” , how would you react? I bet you would be singing a whole different tune.”

I say get into the various cottage industrious out there…
become a seamtress, make quilts, afghans, while you and your kids are sitting in front of the set, clean houses, walk dogs…but whatever you do try not to be a pole dancer too many out there as it is, ya know

carisma says:
“Men are put in that same predicament when released from prison, aren’t making enough money, paying child support and trying to survive.”

I say there are 24 hours in a day, you only need 6-8 hours to sleep, what about those other 16 hours…that’s good for a least 2-3 jobs…hell, get up at 4:00AM, get on a bike with a bag and collect recyclables, there are plenty of legit jobs to pay that child-support and to live off of…the problem is some of these same men that just got out of the penile system think they are just too damn good for the work so they hide from the baby mamas looking for that check and blame it on the gov’t and anyone else who’s stupid enough to listen!

The gov’t is there to make sure you’re not cheated out of that check you earned, among other things! Where there’s a will, there is a legal way! Believe that!

75. james wrote:

john, you cannot blame social programs on the cultural and societal changes within any community. that makes no sense whatsoever. the biggest change in our country, in addition to the myriad of technological and social changes, has been the shift from a production economy to a service economy.

76. james wrote:

well, that came out wrong: i meant, john, you cannot blame social programs for the cultural and societal changes within any community as most of these programs are designed to help individuals, many of which still do to a great deal of success.

77. wouldn't you love to know? wrote:

i like that one too Miss Martin. it kinda has a ring to it….

in the meantime, that’s exactly why i’m CELIBATE. yes i’m getting that personal, and “ad hominem”(i’m running with this for a minute) on y’all….it’s debates, and discussions like these, that reinforce my beliefs…..i’ve realized that,as a black woman, the odds of me having a child out of wed-lock, are 70%. those numbers are scary as hell. not too many things scare me, but shit like this does…and it’s embarrassing….we as a culture, and people, should be ashamed of this, and rather appalled….as Carisma stated, we need to “wise up”. the only solution to this epidemic, is to lead by example.

when did it ever become uncool, to love and care for your family???
when was it ever cool to blame others for our short comings?

that’s why i’ve preserved myself, for a brutha that really gets the Modus Operandi…Capice???(only i would mix latin and italian)….because the only true solution to this problem, is to lead by example…don’t talk about it, be about it….we’re all guilty of some triflingness, to a certain degree…it’s just up to us as a people, to realize this, and correct it…

i know some will veiw this post as irrelevant, but to me, you can’t talk about what the government is doing wrong, and not this as well. in my eyes they go hand in hand….to solve a problem, you have to look at all the dynamics of the equation…that said, brothas pay up that child support, or better yet, settle y’all asses down a bit, and get y’all mind right…

ps- i know it’s not all on the brothas. we have some trifling ass sistas out here too, but that’s another day, another post. shoot, maybe we can discuss that, on mother’s day…..

peace

78. Clifton Harrison wrote:

wyltk, thank you for adding that disclaimer and not having that “all men are dogs” outlook!!

Clif

p.s., “triflingness”…hilarious!

79. jazzy wrote:

As Marc said I believed that Obama was completely pandering to white conservatives. He was making that speech for the camera not for the black audience in front of him. This is especially disappointing because part of the reason why Black people are voting for Barack is because we feel that finally there will be someone in the oval office who truly cares about our community and concerns and will seriously address those concerns. Then he publically chastises the Black community to appease conservatives.

I know politics is a dirty game but its still disappointing.

80. mike wrote:

to post #59 rayandsamara: I was attempting to point out that the bigger SYSTEMS make it difficult for educators and local community organizations to succeed. There are many of us at the grassroots level serving young people each day, but the SYSTEMS make it difficult to have much of an impact on the culture and midset of our young people who are not interested in coming to school and learning to read and learn math. But, I keep trying. And, anyone reading this can have an impact by serving in your own way. BUT, the job always has its limitations due to the SYSTEMS we are up against that are not set up for young black men of color to succeed (ex. student loans…that ole black tax keeps you in debt til you die…yes, Dr. Hill more debt forgiveness needed please). You mention NCLB. Well Title I is one federal SYSTEM under the NCLB umbrella, yet there are major SYSTEM problems. In short, the curriculum standards are now more rigorous. Who is this negatively impacting…poor black teens who were already behind in reading, writing & math achievement. check out the graduation rates in Flint and Detroit or in your own major inner city. The drop out rate is bananas in our communities…these issues are connected to incarceration rates of our young men as we all know. although I do what I can for my students and my nephews…I/WE have not created the SYSTEM that is making it hard for our kids to have a fighting chance across the board…let alone become nurturing fathers who are active present, providers. One thing I know for sure…the SYSTEM helps keep the prisons filled to the rim with fathers of color. These SYSTEMS have created a mindset about manhood and redefined what success is in our culture, our music, our families…the negative cycle repeats & makes it tough…but, despite these SYSTEMS we do have fathers in our community who find their way and do what they can…the well known book MAKES ME WANNA HOLLA…is a relevant reminder of who we are as a whole and that we can recover.

81. wouldn't you love to know? wrote:

clif, you haven’t heard “ludiocrocy” yet.
although, i think i have pulled that one out before….

two fangas.

82. carisma wrote:

Why are people saying Obama was pandering to the white conservatives when he made that comment? Have we forgotten that Barack Obama’s father was black and his father left his mother to be a single parent. So, I think Obama has the right to speak on black men abandoning their children. Ya’ll just mad/embarrassed that you got called out for the world to see. I know the truth hurts, but go take some aspirin and lie down.. haha.

Marc and some of these other black men are pandering to hide their embarrassment or shame of the number of single women abandoned by black men. No need to hide the fact or point fingers, deal with the facts at hand. Negroes aren’t raising their children and black couples do not value monogamy or marriage. Due to black men and women not valuing themselves. White people (the government) can NOT and should NOT help us with that. That is black people’s own personal problem that we should solve. Laws cannot change it, changes in behaviors and mentalities is the only way to change it.

83. Garrett wrote:

It doesn’t matter how much Obama panders to conservatives; a true conservative would never vote for Obama since Obama’s policy positions represent the polar opposite of conservative ideals.

84. carisma wrote:

Garrett,

Please believe that the forefathers disliked Muslims (just as they do now), Jews, Hebrews, and any other foreign religions. Do to their ignorance, exploitation, and lack of respect for true doctrinal meaning. Why do you think the black forefathers and slave ancestors were forbidden to practice their native religions? Most of the slaves from Africa were Muslim, Hebrew, or practiced their native religions (which were later called voodoo or pagan). You think they had a right to practice their religion? Heck No! Any religion stemming from Roman (Catholic) or European idealisms/religions are the foundations of America. Our ancestors weren’t allowed to read a Bible until AFTER the Emancipation of Slaves. Don’t be foolish to think the white forefathers welcomed all religions. That is historical dohickey..

85. www.rayandsamara.com wrote:

technically thats not true. slaves learned how to read off of torn pages from the bible. . . . . Fredick Douglas taught slaves how to read by reading the bible. . . .all of which happened way before emancipation. . .

86. carisma wrote:

Ray,

I am sure this wasn’t allowed on a large scale. Most slaves were forbidden to read and write, but little did the ignorant Europeans know that some of the slaves were already able to read and write. When early Europeans brought Christianity to Africa, they taught them how to read and write. Also, the slaves were not all from one of the same group. Many could read and write in English, Arabic, Hebrew, and other native languages when they were first brought to America in the 1500s-1800s. Once they arrived and made as slaves, they were forbidden and forced to forget how to read or write in their native languages. Some didn’t follow that rule, but most did.

Frederick Douglas may have already had previous knowledge of reading and writing thats how it was so easy for him “teach himself”. Frederick Douglas was biracial, the reason he was permitted to do things other non biracial slaves couldn’t do. The white slaveowners always gave the biracial slaves more “privileges”.

87. b hill wrote:

It seems to me that the opinions that aren’t at least considering Mr. Hill’s perspective aren’t educated in the field of reality. Theory seems to be the overtone here. I am an african american father of one, my EX WIFE and I divorced when she got pregnant by the minister of music’s son. I lived with my son in St. Louis when I faced lay off from a major corp. When I found that my industry was down sizing in general I was forced out of town. I left town, took a lower paying job, earned less so I couldn’t afford my 600 support payment. I got backed up, garnishments were applied and I coculdn’t afford my car wich was my source of work. I lost that job and was forced to a job in Atlanta. Now, here I am, college grad, two grad certficates and working a commission only job. What do i do tanya – do I appply to have my support lowered? Maybe I should send you the rejection letters. Could you sign off on them and they will reconsider? I could go on but….

88. John wrote:

The only benefit harsh drug sentencing has to the government is to kill two birds with one stone. They can put black men in prison for a long time and take their rights to vote and bear arms when released, which leave black men defenseless.

Actually …

Harsh drug sentences are designed to do one thing only — reduce violent crimes against whites AND blacks by removing those predisposed to robbing, stealing and murdering to get money to buy drugs.

Who do you think led the argument for tough crack laws? It was black politicians from urban congressional districts that pleaded for help, in large part because of the huge increase in violent crime in their districts.

For example, Rep. Alton Waldon from Queens told Congress: “For those of us who are black this self-inflicted pain is the worst oppression we have known since slavery. Let us pledge to crack down on crack.”

In fact, at the time, not a single black member of Congress complained that the law distinguishing between crack and powder cocaine was racist.

And statistics have shown that there IS a good reason for the distinction — crack users and sellers are far more likely than powder cocaine abusers to have violent criminal histories and/or possession of a gun when arrested.

Even today, despite all the talk about drug sentencing disparities, the vast majority of prisoners in state prisons are there for violent crimes or crimes against property.

In other words, there was no massive conspiracy to remove innocent black men from the streets, to take away their right to vote, etc. The goal was to reduce the waves of violent crime and lost lives that gripped many communities in the 1980s.

Were these laws fair and just? In some cases, no … another example of how there are often unintended consequences of EVERY government action.

89. Mel wrote:

I think a lot black men are just sorry as hell. They don’t want to work and go through extremes not to pay child support.
Someone made this comment earlier
“if the young men do not see strong black fathers and positive examples of how fathers should raise their children, then it’s highly unlikely that they will have motivation or desire to be a good father”
Which is ridiculous. My father grew up with a mother and father and they weren’t poor. He had all the opportunities in the world given to him. Him and my mom married and when I was only 2 months old he up and left us. The first first time I saw my biological father was a few years ago when I was 22 years old. What was his excuse? Where as my husband hasn’t seen his father since he was five years old. He and his brother was raised by their mother. They both turned out to be great family men with a wife and kids and no outside kids.
So to me it has nothing to do with the government or the war on drugs or whatever lame excuse they try to give these deadbeats. Everyone make their own decisions in life and some men and/or women just decide to be deadbeats instead of parents.

90. james wrote:

garrett, obama’s reaching out to conservatives is not necessarily to attract votes, but to show that republicans aren’t the only ones with values and religion, which was supposedly a huge factor in the last two elections.

91. Garrett wrote:

Obama can market himself that way, but his record shows otherwise.

92. Logic wrote:

To say that Obama shouldn’t speak out against deadbeat black fathers in public is ridiculous. More people should be speaking out about it. Then maybe it will become so taboo that knuckleheads will think twice about making babies.

Here is my School Daze moment: WAAAAAAAAAAKE UUUUUUUUUUUP!, WAAAAAAAAAAKE UUUUUUUUUUUP!, WAAAAAAAAAAKE UUUUUUUUUUUP!, Wake the FU** UP!

93. james wrote:

since nobody’s really touched on this specifically, let me ask: how much is marijuana a factor in the lives of young black people sleeping around and shirking their responsibilities. the potency of marijuana has increased significantly in the past 40 years and i can’t think of any other drug that would decrease your motivation to do what’s right on daily basis, particularly amongst heavier users who start in their early teens.

also, how much easier is it to obtain marijuana if you’re black or hispanic, compared to the whites? and how is marijuana use perceived within african-american communities?

94. james wrote:

also, what about the prevalence of guns in black communities? could this have an effect on the minds of young people? self-assessments such as this: i’ll be dead or in prison by the time i’m 25. how many of you ever uttered that phrase yourself, or at least had some friends who felt this way.

while i certainly respect barack obama for elevating the debate about fatherhood in the black communities, it should, as marc has pointed out, not come without the debate about what’s really wrong with many black communities. is it really a stretch to say that guns and drug use play a huge role in the lives of young black men, none of which are pointed towards better parenting skills? and that these changes have occured over the past 40 years.

you cannot scold teenagers into make better decisions about their lives when they cannot imagine better lives for themselves. i certainly believe that these cosby-like messages have a place and are completely necessary, but so does acknowledgement of the social issues that are currently preventing young folks from really hearing and listening to the messages.

lack of living-wage jobs for less educated laborers, and a high prevalence of gun and drug use: until these issues are mitigated in some fashion, many young black men will still be on the run.

95. Logic wrote:

James,

The solution starts with mending the black family. That’s why this discussion is so important. If we can find a way to sustain the black family structure, the rest will fall into place. But to do that, we need black men to step up to the plate.

There is some self reflection that must occur. One of the biggest problem is the culture that many young african-american men adhere to. The Cosby ideal is lame to them. Their pursuit of happYness does not involve a wife, kids, and home ownership. Rather many aspire to money, hoes, and clothes. The middle class lifestyle is unnacceptable. Ironically, most will never even attain this modest level of living.

96. james wrote:

logic, the middle class lifestyle is abhorrent to many teenagers, particularly for those who were not raised up in it.

97. Logic wrote:

Exactly! There’s something wrong with that.

98. james wrote:

it’s quite normal for teenagers to rebel against society, but the problems seem to grow exponentially when larger proportions of guns, drugs, unemployment, and riskier sex are thrown into the mix.

99. clifton harrison wrote:

I don’t understand how it is difficult to acknowledge that to correct this problem of men (black men specifically) not being fathers for their children, that it needs to be a combination of both men doing their job (raising their children) AND looking at ways to improve society and the structures we have in place that are having a negative effect on the black family structure. Rarely will you ever have a problem in society that can be corrected with one simple answer or adjustment.

Clif

100. clifton harrison wrote:

We cannot dismiss the man’s repsonsibility, or pass the buck towards anything else, but at the same time, we cannot ignore the woman’s responsibility, the goverment’s role, the community’s mentality, and the media’s effect on our society. They all play an important factor, and as such, should all be acknowledged and examined along with the men’s actions.

101. Tom Penn wrote:

When did “I wanna be your baby momma” come into play? As O’Reily pointed out, the statistic of 70% did not exist 40 years ago, nor did the problem of fractured families. Hence, it is a choice and cultural issue. The goverment didn’t invent a program called “baby momma,” prople did. People in the 1960’s had children out of wedlock by accident. Today, they PLAN on illigitamncy and a doode refering to his “baby momma” or “baby mommas” is an accepted norm.

The 21st Century is the era of China and India, n ot America. In China, a married couple is allowed but ONE child. In India, after you’ve had your second child, a representive of the government come knocking at your door to tell you, you’re done breeding. As this century moves forward, we have two choices. Either the government is going to end the concept of “baby momma,” or the people will do it themselves.

102. Clifton Harrison wrote:

“As O’Reily pointed out, the statistic of 70% did not exist 40 years ago, nor did the problem of fractured families. Hence, it is a choice and cultural issue”

You just aren’t listening…your hearing…but you ain’t listening Tom Penn.

read the last part of #39 please….thank you

Clif

103. Piscean Princess wrote:

Clifton,

I don’t think anyone thinks that these other things shouldn’t be examined. The point I have been trying to make is that while all of that (legitimate & needed) examination is taking place, brothers need to step up to the plate. ‘Cause the truth that we all know is that the examination of the policies and how we got here is not what’s going to get fathers back in the home. One on one conversations with folks, scolding them for their behavior, showing them their options, talking to them about the rewards of being involved…that’s what will work.

And I’d be willing to bet that at least 1 deadbeat dad heard/saw/heard about Obama’s Father’s Day speech…..and isn’t it possible that this black man who grew up fatherless, who could be our next commander in chief may have caused at least 1 of these guys to pick up the phone & call their kid?

If he’d been standing up there “examining” the reasons why brothers DON’T step up, they’d-a heard that too. Bet that wouldn’t have prompted any surprise phone calls to the offspring….

104. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Ok, we our in agreement, both are important (brothers stepping up, and the exmination of societies role in them stepping up).

Scolding people, can work, and may work for some, but for others, not so much. When people lose hope, and don’t give a fuck about life, then being scolded may be considered a joke, if they even take the time to hear what you are saying.

I definetly believe that Obama’s speech was helpful, and it probably did encourage or inspire a man to do better with his child, but not acknowledging the other factors that play a role in that is what called his motives into question by marc (i think), and also isn’t fair because his message can be interpreted as only blaming the fathers.

Clif

105. Logic wrote:

Who’s to blame then? Granted these strucural factors play a role but that doesn’t relieve them of any accountability.

I don’t think Obama should’ve talked about these other factors. If you black in American then you already know this sh** exists, its a given. The question then becomes, what are you going to do about it. That’s what Obama was discussing.

106. Piscean Princess wrote:

I don’t think we ever disagreed about the fact that both are important (the stepping up & the examination of said steps).

The difference of opinion that I have with Dr. Marc on this (as well as on the Cosby issue) is that I don’t think that EVERY time someone (ie. B. H. Obama, W.H. Cosby, me, you) is speaking about one of these issues, they gotta go to the structural stuff. I think that sometimes it’s the proper time & place for that. And sometimes it’s time to just let folks know that you see them slipping and want them to get it together.

Let’s say you had a child who, for whatever reason, has a teacher who has started to treat them a little unfairly…grading their papers with less effort or perspective, not giving them any leeway for being tardy to class, even when they have a valid excuse. It serves you and your child best if you tell your child that they need to make sure that their ish is as tight as possible before they can complain about unfair treatment. And then, you honor the reality of the situation by speaking to the teacher about what’s happening.

If you tell the child that the teacher is being unfair or biased, the child doesn’t learn to strive to do better. Not checking your child for their role in the problem doesn’t help the child.

I think the issue is the same here. If we take the politics off the table for a minute, I don’t think that it was the time or the place for Sen. Obama to talk about barriers Black men experience to fathering their children. That’s something that he might want to discuss when he’s talking about what he plans to do when he’s in office. And as for the argument that he should have talked about white folks too, ’cause some of them ain’t taking care of their kids….WHO CARES? That’s their problem….we are our own problem. And the problem of broken families in the Black community is real and it’s immediate. It’s urgent like a M.F. It is not only the problem/fault of fathers. But on Father’s Day, that’s who Sen. Obama was talking about.

107. clifton harrison wrote:

“serves you and your child best if you tell your child that they need to make sure that their ish is as tight as possible before they can complain about unfair treatment. And then, you honor the reality of the situation by speaking to the teacher about what’s happening”

Say no more, I agree with that 150%.

108. econwhat wrote:

Piscean Princess, you have put this whole discussion as clearly into focus as it will ever be!:)

The dismantling of companies and shipping jobs overseas, the selling of those products back to us at exorbitant prices, crooks in financial institutions, sleepers in the government, etc, etc, etc can’t offset being a present and good father and mother to your kid/s. I think the deadbeats have run out of excuses and run into shame. Yes,look into the mirror and also really look at your kid/s.

This s**t is bound to get straighten out before it’s over.

109. DCI74 wrote:

Cosign PP. It’s amazing to me that after over 100 comments some completely off-base, some non-productive, some antagonistic and way too personal you succinctly sum it up in a few short paragraphs. Kudos to you.

110. FBI-CIA wrote:

As a divorcee with 3 boys 18, 13 and 5 I have to disagree with a lot of the posters here. (I’m in total agreement with Carisma though) There are dynamics present in each “relationship” that play a big part in how much the “father” participates in a relationship. As a nurse, I’m also aware of the psychological issues that could prevent parties from being equal participants in child-rearing. Not everyone is equipped with the same tools, you all know that. There are “functional” psychos out there. Because of societal ills and constructs, there are millions of depressed people. I see them in my office everyday. Some are on drugs, some need to be and some refuse (because they don’t see a problem).

My ex is suffering from depression, he knows it, he refuses to get help and take medication. His guilt from cheating on me prevents him from participating fully. He hates his job, he doesn’t make enough money, he’s struggling to support himself and the kids, all this chips away at his pride, ego, manhood. A lot of you say that the fathers could just take the kids to the park, make a phone call, it’s all free! Well, all that’s not enough. Maybe enough for a 5 year old, but not enough for a 13 & 18 year old. He needs to engage them mentally & emotionally, which he is unable to do. (Because of depression) The older boys sympathize with him, they feel sorry for him. My ex cannot emotionally raise these boys. But because I know better, instead of berating him, I encourage the boys to reach out to him, engage him. I’ve never spoken negatively about their father in front of them, which ensures they don’t have a negative protrayal of him.

You’d be surprised of how many women make it difficult for a man to even make the “phone call”. There are plenty of bitter women out there, and I understand why they are mad, they should be. Some women feel that if the man doesn’t or can’t support his child, then she wont give him access to the child. But at what point do you deal with the pain and disappointment and move on about the business of raising your child? Some people need a hand, not everyone has the strong personal circle of friends and family to support them.

As I said before, not everyone is working with the same tools. Information is everywhere, it’s surprising that everyone doesn’t know everything. Some people need “telling”. Some don’t want you to tell them anything! You’d be amazed to know how strong the human psyche is. It is powerful, more powerful than reality.

111. Tanya wrote:

FBI-CIA,

You are obviously a wonderful mother. I’m thankful you offered this insight and your personal perspective. You seem very understanding and mature and I’m sure you will raise 3 strong, good men.

I don’t have facts and statistics, but I can empirically substantiate the claim that: the situation of your ex is the exact situation of 90% of the deadbeat dads.

The government isn’t holding him back, nor drugs (illegal), he’s holding himself back. And as you mentioned some men are held back by the negative woman in their lives. These are things we (as a people, men and women) need to take personal responsibility for.

PS – Forgive me if I over step my boundaries here, but I have to say it… You seem peaceful and forgiving, maybe you should rejoin your family; for your ex’s sake and the sake of your children!

112. Cézsar wrote:

Tanya,

I believe there are now more than enough posts made by yourself on countless topics on this here blog site, to empirically substantiate what I’m about to say next: you are a very bitter woman.

The way you ALWAYS talk about Black men is very telling. It is not a loving critique; it is not tough love; it is a deep-seated resentment that you consciously nurture…and this perhaps explains why you are Republican.

Let it go darling…brush it off, that dirt, or chip, or break that boulder on your shoulder. There is a fine line between being passionate and being angry; that line does not exist with you. Not from what I see in your posts.

113. Tanya wrote:

Cézsar,

Please specify exactly what statements I have made that lead you to believe I am “a very bitter woman”.

Just quote exactly 1 or 2 statements I made that are bitter!

I am not bitter towards anyone or anything.

Men have always been very good to me! Black men especially!

I don’t mean to toot my own horn, but men sweat me hard!

I have never had a bad relationship with any of my ex-boyfriends. I have had very healthy and productive relationships with all of my ex-boyfriends (95% of them black).

I am, to this very day, still good friends with ALL of my ex-boyfriends. Not to mention, that all of my relationships have ended because I ended them. I chose to move on. But they all still respect me, and I believe they would all come back to me without hesitation. They still call and say so!

Also, I have a great father. A black man. Who has been in my life every single day since my birth, and continues to support me, my sister and my mother (his wife of 30yrs) as a good father should, to this very day. I love my dad tremendously, and I know he loves me even more. He show and proves it everyday!

Further, I come from a huge family with hundreds of males cousins (not literally hundreds). I have a great relationship with all of my male and female cousins and my uncles and aunts. Bitter is not a word or emotion I know. Sorry!

So what is it that makes you think I am bitter towards black men???

Further, I am a Republican, because I stand firmly on the Pro-Life platform. I’m a fiscal conservative (the country is most progressive when taxes are at their lowest). I believe in the democracy of small government. And I believe in family values and high morals, and I believe it is the Republican Party alone, who can not only maintain, but uplift these ideals.

If you really read my comments and understand them, you would see all of these ideals resonated.

Democrats believe the exact opposite of my 3 first reasons for being a Republican.

Democrats have done nothing but abuse and misuse the black people and black issues they claim to “support”.

So please also explain how being a Republican is linked to being bitter towards black men.

I LOVE Black men, and I think all the financial contributions I have given to Morehouse College, provide a glimpse of that.

Cézsar, get your shit together bruh!

114. Tanya wrote:

PS – Cézsar, I suggested to FBI-CIA, on this very post, to get back with her ex, who is a black man that cheated on her. If I was “a very bitter woman”, would I have suggested she rejoin her family with him??????????

Cézsar, I’m starting to think maybe you’re a deadbeat dad, and my comments here hit home for you. Take your own advice and “brush it off, that dirt, or chip, or break that boulder on your shoulder”. And take personal responsibility BLACK MAN!

115. Tanya wrote:

Cézsar,

You might want to read my last comment on the June 16, 2008 “Video of the Day” post, regarding Obama’s Father’s Day Speech.

116. Cézsar wrote:

You might really wanna consider how you put yourself across then darling because your so-called “love” for Black men is just not translating in your rhetoric.

If the picture perfect all-American princess lifestyle you just described is the one you’ve really lived, then who is this character you are pretending to be on the blogs? The lifestyle of the person you describe and the person spouting off on this blog are NOT the same. Please explain the discrepancy. Your dad and all those prince charming Mr Perfect boyfriends gave you all that unconditional loving just so you could turn around and indiscriminately hate on Black men? Huh? Pourquoi? How is this possible? Your story is not adding up darling…explain.

Tough love only works when the emphasis is on love darling. Didn’t your pops teach you that? The Black community in general has mostly ever focused on the “tough”, and the white community in general has mostly ever focused on the “love”, and that’s the difference. Didn’t your pops and boyfriends who have loved you so much teach you that?

For a supposedly thoroughly nurtured and loved woman, something is curiously missing from your speech and expression. I think you know what that something is.

Oh and good luck with being a Black Republican. With role models like Jesse Lee Peterson to emulate, I’m sure you’ll be just fine, and rewarded accordingly.

117. Tanya wrote:

Cézsar,

Be glad we are not face to face! Be very glad!

“picture perfect all-American princess lifestyle”

I don’t know what that is!

But I come from a strong West-Indian family where GOD and family is the main focus. My parents love me dearly, and I’ve always had people around me who loved me, so I had a great childhood. And guess what, that love has always been given back from me to everyone who encounters me.

GOD is love, but some people don’t see GOD. If you have problems seeing GOD, you may have problems recognizing my love.

“The lifestyle of the person you describe and the person spouting off on this blog are NOT the same. Please explain the discrepancy.”

Again I ask you Cézsar, what did I “spout off on this blog” that you think is bitter, or in contrast to the person of love that I am?? You keep saying there’s a discrepancy, but you have failed to provide any proof of your claimed discrepancy. But that’s because you have none!

So I asked you, why are you indiscriminately hating on me???

“Your dad and all those prince charming Mr Perfect boyfriends gave you all that unconditional loving just so you could turn around and indiscriminately hate on Black men.”

Please specify what you consider “hate[ing] on Black men”, that I have said on this blog. All I know is that 1 bad apple will spoil the batch. If I try to remove that 1 bad apple and dispose of that 1 bad apple, that doesn’t mean I don’t like apples. (Ya Dig!)

“Your story is not adding up darling…explain.”

Explain what??? I grew up in a two parent home with a Dad and Mom who loves me. I’ve been smart enough to date men who were educated and ambitious and not drug dealers or gangsters. I speak truth, candid, direct and complete. The truth hurts, so not everybody can take it, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to stop speaking it. Nothing I have said on this blog is contrary to this. And you haven’t proved that it is, because you can’t! Stop hating on me Céz!

What’s not adding up is you assessment that I’m bitter and that being a Republican is linked to me being bitter. Again, try and give an example, please! Otherwise all of your statements will be chalked up as frivolous, forever and always.

“Tough love only works when the emphasis is on love darling. Didn’t your pops teach you that? The Black community in general has mostly ever focused on the “tough”, and the white community in general has mostly ever focused on the “love”, and that’s the difference. Didn’t your pops and boyfriends who have loved you so much teach you that?”

My loving father has taught me many things. One among them: “You may not realize it when it happens, but a kick in the teeth might be the best thing in the world for you.” – Walt Disney (Ponder Upon That)

To me that is the difference between the black and white communities. White people welcome and accept criticism, because they want to grow. Black people can’t take criticism, because they think they are already “grown”!

BTW – I have no proof that Uncle Ruckus, I mean, Jesse Lee Peterson, is a Republican. But I do have proof that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X were Republicans. King & X were both Pro-Life, fiscally conservative, and fought for small government.

But ignorant black people can’t see that, because they don’t even know what the difference is between Republicans and Democrats. All they know is someone told them all Republicans are prejudice and Democrats are not. So they believe it.

Are you one of the ignorant black people Cézsar??? If you’re a Democrat tell me why! Or more importantly, tell me why you’re against Republicans!

118. Tanya wrote:

PS – Cézsar, why is it that you have failed to answer any of the questions I posed to you in #111 and #112????

Are you the type to just make up things that aren’t true and then ignore the challenge to provide any level of proof? That is what one can accurately call “unhinged”!