1. Blaxx wrote:

The comments on this one will be interesting. I say the tally will be around 153 and will continue over the weekend. Would be more if it was a Monday and not a Friday tho. I’ve already said my piece about this enough in a blog posting.

2. R.oB. wrote:

I’ve seen three different clips. The only incident that “beats” it was the Houston ballplayer shot on his own driveway.

There’ll be plenty of comments but not so much unless someone like a Tanya says something right-wing-nutty like, “Thank God for police officers like this that keep us safe!” THEN you’ll have flame wars de jour. Otherwise my money is in the mid to low 80’s.

3. anita wrote:

this is just crazy… how do some people live with themselves? I’ll never understand how hate lives so deep it causes one man to take another’s life.

4. Marc Lamont Hill wrote:

Fuck the police!

5. DCI74 wrote:

Exactly R.oB. my thoughts are definitely with Robbie Tolan and his family as well. How a man can still be deemed a threat while laying on his stomach, half of his face on the concrete, his hands restrained behind him and a knee in his back makes no sense to me at all. RIP Oscar Grant.

6. Blaxx wrote:

I’ve come to grips with the fact that police mandate practically dictates that the only good black man is a dead black man so this doesn’t surprise me. What hit me the hardest is that this could have easily been me or one of my friends. The only solace I can take is that our subway constables don’t carry weapons.

7. Gabe wrote:

Both situations, Grant (RIP) and Tolan are disgusting, and indicative of what MANY folks were trying to articulate against the whole notion that an Obama presidency would bring a “post-racial” America. My reports from folks on the ground in Oakland are that things are real serious out there, with almost 200 arrests in the wake of youth protests over the last week. I’m encouraged however that there are forces getting together to ORGANIZE (more so than MOBILIZE), and put together pro-active measures to deal with this intolerable police violence. I’m hoping this will wake those up still in la-la land; my fear is that it will not.

8. Ann wrote:

I am truly saddened by these turn of events….but on the other hand I am proud of my people for standing up and protesting this shooting. They were quick to react and rally around the family. I love to see my people taking a stand for one another.

9. Blaxx wrote:

I wish this was getting more coverage though. I wouldn’t have heard about it if Mrs. Rivers didn’t put me on to what was going down and send me the Youtube link. It only made news in Toronto yesterday.

10. Miss Martin wrote:

FUCK DA POLICE!

11. ~JJG~ wrote:

I’ve heard about this story for a few days now, but I haven’t been able to bring myself to watch the video. The story has made my heart hurt. It is events like this that makes it challenging not to hate.

12. ~JJG~ wrote:

…but dammit I want to hate…

13. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Please don’t buy into how the media is covering this story. I live out here. I was at the rally (as well as the protests on the streets downtown).

THIS WAS NO RIOT!

If you guys want to help, please search for the “Coalition Against Police Execution” aka C.A.P.E.

Join the group on facebook so we can show strength in numbers…please!

14. james wrote:

clifton, how do you define riot?

15. DCI74 wrote:

I see you Clif. I just joined the group.

16. Miss Martin wrote:

me too! (joined group!) shit just crazy……

17. Blaxx wrote:

I just joined (and stole DC’s wall post to use in my status)

18. DCI74 wrote:

Biting ass Blaxx! lol

19. ~JJG~ wrote:

Thanks Clif. I just joined (the group) too and I’m posting it on my peoples walls.

20. Clifton Harrison wrote:

thank you!

well james, I wrote a big long entry about that day in general (google whoisclifsoulo (dot) blogspot, sorry for the plug)

but by definition…yes, you technically could call it a riot.

BUT, the news/media are using the word riot because it is a loaded word, especially when dealing with police brutality (against black people). It takes all but two seconds when you say police brutality and riot for someone to link it with Rodney King and the Watts riot.

do you disagree?

If not, then compare what happened in Watts to the small group of people that destroyed property (not physical violence and harm to actual people or police officers).

If you can honestly say that what happened a couple of days ago is in any way close to what happened in Watts, well…slap me around and call me susie…haha

I joke, but it’s really not funny

21. james wrote:

clifton, i have no intention of comparing the size of one riot to another. seems rather pointless.

22. jess wrote:

i have to agree with Blaxx, this story isn’t getting nearly enough coverage… i learned about the story at The Kitchen Table and couldn’t bring myself to watch the video until just now. i also agree with JJG. it is difficult resisting the urge to hate, not only because this young man lost his life with so much of it yet to live, but also because his 4-year-old daughter no longer has the opportunity to know her father. i keep hearing that this was an accident, that the officer didn’t know that he was holding his pistol as opposed to his taser until it was too late, but accident or not, this is a life that we’ll never get back. meherles (the officer) has since resigned, but according to the facebook group, he has yet to be charged with the murder and BART has yet to start an investigation… what’s the hold up?

23. wouldn't you like to know? wrote:

this is truly disgusting….i’m dying to know what the outcome of this trial will be..fucking loser ass police…

fuck those smelly rotten pigs!!!

Clif i’m going to open a facebook account just so i can join the group…good looking on the link brotha…

24. james wrote:

wyltk, while i’m certainly no fan of the police, i really don’t understand the generalized hostility towards the police. would you prefer we didn’t have police? how would that work?

25. Clifton Harrison wrote:

that is not my intention, what i’m trying to say is that the word “riot” (speaking in this situation specifically) is very dangerous for the media to use because it’s dealing with police brutality, and it easily envoke/invokes the watts riot (because it came as a result of police brutality on a black man in which the officers got off).

I personally was out there, and they(the media) very easily could have ran with a more accurate story line: “Peaceful protests in Oakland, small group of people cause property damage” or something in that vein.

Honestly, I’m very nervous/scared because the media is potentially setting Oakland up for a real “riot” and not just a few people destroying property.

26. Clifton Harrison wrote:

James. Please do some research into the history of police abuse/brutality against poor people and people of color.

Here’s a simple question. When you see the police, do you have any fear? Are you scared at all?

27. DCI74 wrote:

Please make sure you keep informed of the Robbie Tolan situation too. At least Robbie is still alive but he was also shot in his back at home in his own driveway. The cops claim they thought his SUV was stolen but come on it would’ve taken minutes to run the plates and cross reference that with his home address to see the truck wasn’t stolen. Shoot first and ask questions later.

28. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Yes…i just saw that DC…Not only am i just scared for my life…I’m really getting nervous about Obama…shit is getting real bad

29. james wrote:

clifton, i got that most of the protesters were basically peaceful people, and i live on the other side of the country. however, i’ve seen live footage from the protests. folks chanting slogans like “fuck the police” are hardly peaceful. that is not peaceful language. that is people trying to incite a riot, which is what eventually happened.

30. james wrote:

clifton, i’ve been afraid of the police since i was 3 years old. it is quite natural to fear people with guns, and who can instantly put a crimp in your wallet. however, i’ve always been thankful for them when trouble breaks out across the street.

31. DCI74 wrote:

james you’re right chanting “fuck teh police” is not peaceful language and that’s teh whole point, it’s not supposed to be. But it’s still a peaceful protest if until violence occurs but if simply those words can incite a riot then riots should have been popping off since 88 when NWA dropped that record. People are not stupid nor are they sheep, it takes much more than words to incite a riot. I work down the street from an abortion clinic and a couple of times a week there is always a group of people protesting right across the street from the clinic. They have signs calling people murderers and baby killers, sound like peaceful language to you? I have yet to see one riot and I’ve see them at least 2x a week for that last 7 years.

32. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Ok. Well here is where we differ.

One, most of the protesters were not “basically” peaceful, we WERE peaceful.

secondly, saying “fuck the police” may be harsh language, it may be vulgar, but it is not inciting a riot.

“Kill that cop right there!!!”

“Lets burn this city down!!!”

that type of language, i would consider inciting a riot.

You’ve seen live footage from the protests. I appreciate you trying to be more informed, but what footage were you looking at? what is the source of that footage?

I think I might be able to understand better, let me know in your opinion what a riot is? so that way we can work on some better level of understanding.

Also, if your father has a gun in the house, do you fear him? I’m assuming your answer is no, because he is there to protect you (in most cases). Well, the Police are “suppose” to “protect and serve”, but for most young people of color, they are a gang. and the most powerful gang at that, because they can harm you, brutalize you, kill you…legally.

I urge you to look at the history of the police in places like L.A, New York, and especially Oakland (specifically during the Black Panthers era, late 60’s to early 70’s if i’m not mistaken).

Look at the more recent history with the “Oakland Riders”, or “Officer Gonzales” (who is under investigation right now i believe because of shooting an unarmed young black man in the back as well).

It is not as easy to be thankful if you are being abused/assaulted by those same police on a day to day basis (even if the “trouble” is across the street).

It’s not easy to be thankful for police when they are who you fear most.

It’s not easy to be thankful for police when they believe YOU are the troublemaker, before even attempting to find out the facts.

33. Clifton Harrison wrote:

and please don’t confuse my words as anger toward you, because I respect you (and anyone else’s opinion). I’m upset and angered at the situation, but not your opinion (even if we disagree)

34. Blaxx wrote:

wyltk, while i’m certainly no fan of the police, i really don’t understand the generalized hostility towards the police. would you prefer we didn’t have police? how would that work?

Comment by james — January 9, 2009 @ 3:10 pm

“They got guns and I don’t got one. Can I live?”

The problem with police is that sometime a long time ago they forgot the reason that police was created in the first place “To Protect and Serve”, that’s it. Given they do have one of the most difficult jobs in the entire world (protecting people from themselves) but Protecting and Serving became making arrests and “Dope on the fuckin table” (Those of you who watched The Wire will know exactly what I mean by that reference). You would like to think that the fuss about how big of a bust the police made, a department’s clearance rate, “fudging the numbers” (turning burglaries into larcenies and making rapes disappear) or an officer’s number of arrests is dramatization made for TV but a few guys I went to high school with are now police officers and it’s even more serious than we think. It is impossible to remain impartial and always have that ‘Protect and Serve’ mantra in your head as a police officer because you might just be having a bad day and feel like cracking a nigger over the head. They know that they’re not supposed to but they can get away with it so why not do it. I’ve been jacked up by the cops on many occasions for no other reason than being young, black and the fact that I drive a nice car and I’m very opinionated.

To give you an example, there was one time I missed a traffic court date I hadn’t known about and was automatically found guilty of the charge (I think it was a speeding ticket or improper turn or something). I didn’t receive any notice in the mail of this or the fine I had to pay so it went unnoticed for a while. After this while my license was suspended, which I didn’t know about because I hadn’t swung by my old place to pick up mail (Canada Post really sucks at mail forwarding so half my mail ends up at my old place). Now by law, Toronto police officers are not allowed to run your license plates until after they have pulled you over. However, sure enough I get pulled over and the first thing the police officer says to me is “Do you know that your license is suspended and that’s why we pulled you over?” These are the little things they do to fuck with us up here because they figure they can get away with it.

The case got thrown out simply because of the officer saying that to me by the way.

35. Blaxx wrote:

And yes I am aware it is one example and not as extreme as what happened on that train platform but I hope you see the point I’m trying to make.

36. james wrote:

dc, people riot when they believe it’s appropriate for them to riot, such as police brutality cases. those protesters at the abortion clinic seem like a slightly a different breed. they are merely part of the landscape, designed to make people coming and going from the clinic feel guilty. however, if they start chanting all day long “fuck the abortionists,” perhaps then you can expect a riot to break out.

37. james wrote:

blaxx, everybody has their own versions of how stupid the law and law enforcement is. if you to change it, perhaps you should become a police officer or a lawyer?

38. ~JJG~ wrote:

James, I don’t hate the police. I know a few good ones and my cousin is a cop, but I am incredibly leery of the police. The police have beaten, raped, killed, and tortured blacks for many decades without remorse. These historical references force me not to trust the police. The police have not reconciled with us (blacks). I live in the south and as black women the first thing I do when I am pulled over is make sure that my hands are visible, but we know that such a nonviolent gesture means nothing, especially in this case.

My white southern girlfriend told me (when we were having a very honest discussion about racism) that she knows cops who sprinkle Bahia grass (those tall weeds in the yard that have those black seed-like things at the top) into a “suspicious” black person’s car that they stop in order to establish reasonable suspicion to search the vehicle. The cops use the argument that the seeds resemble marijuana seeds for their cause to search the vehicle. This is so real.

39. Blaxx wrote:

Tried going the lawyer route. Life happened then I ended up in IT. I have no interest in becoming a police officer for all the aforementioned reasons. I’m perfectly comfortable destroying the machine from the outside. It’s not Unicron after all, I don’t have to be inside its belly to take it down. “We fight, we win” Gernalow Wilson, WHAT UP?

40. james wrote:

clifton, my father always had a gun in the house, but never any ammunition nearby. and now i have that same rifle, which i will pass on to my son. gun safety–and enjoyment via target shooting–is part of the training in my family. i don’t keep any ammunition in the house. we only shoot at the range. as a child, i was more afraid of my father’s belt than his rifle, as is my son.

41. Blaxx wrote:

however, if they start chanting all day long “fuck the abortionists,” perhaps then you can expect a riot to break out.

Hmmm…doesn’t have the same ring

42. Marc Lamont Hill wrote:

Fuck the police.

43. james wrote:

marc, when you say “fuck the police” in a blog comment field, it hardly has the same resonance or intention as has the same kind of hate speech out on the street in the midst of a potentially explosive situation.

44. Blaxx wrote:

Fuck the police.

45. james wrote:

jjg, the lesson there, of course, is to never carry your stash in the car.

46. ~JJG~ wrote:

What? You can’t be serious…James reread my post!

47. Marc Lamont Hill wrote:

james,

what are you talking about?

48. james wrote:

marc, what are you talking about?

49. Blaxx wrote:

For real, james, what the hell are you talking about? Whether you have drugs in the car or not, police should not be allowed to search your car unlawfully.

50. wouldn't you like to know? wrote:

james is just being white…

no worries everyone, go back to your jobs, go to disney world…
pretend like nothing has happened. . .

fuck the racist hate mongering police!!!!!!

51. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Iono, it’s starting to seem like you are debating the other side just for the hell of it James… almost Tanya-esque.

52. james wrote:

blaxx, yea, i get that, but if you get busted, then you’ve got to deal with it, illegal search or not.

wyltk, how did i know you were going to accuse me of being white…?

53. james wrote:

clifton, not debating just for the hell of it; i have a problem with generalized hate speech and rioters. i find them both quite useless in combatting the ills of society.

54. wouldn't you like to know? wrote:

james because clearly you know everything…

you speak from a world only you and ppl like you can relate to…

your ridiculous, insensitive comments are becoming quite old…

you’ve never been a black man in america, so sometimes you need to know when to stfu…

55. DCI74 wrote:

“however, if they start chanting all day long “fuck the abortionists,” perhaps then you can expect a riot to break out.”

Lol man please, I heard them shouting stuff much more incendiary than that and again after 7 years nothing close to a riot. We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one james. I do hear what you are saying but I just don’t think you are giving intelligent people enough credit. I’ve heard worse than “fuck the police” and poetry open mics with the whole damn crowd chanting so it’s obvious those words make you uncomfortable but like I said before it takes much more than just words to start a riot. I’ve actually seen riots start so I’m speaking from my own experience.

So if fuck the police is too harsh for you I’ll offer a few alternatives: Fidduck the po-po, damn the boys, get low here comes 5-0, or the real beasts wear blue…take your pick.

56. james wrote:

dc, i’m not uncomfortable with generalized hate speech; it’s hard to take it seriously, until, of course, there’s a riot….

57. clifton harrison wrote:

My thing to you is James. You are (or in my opinion seem to be) holding onto the “speech” and not understanding the reason behind it.

Why do you think people say Fuck the Police?

58. clifton harrison wrote:

*my thing is james,..*

59. DCI74 wrote:

Ok james do you, but your argument that language starts riots holds as much weight as a wet napkin.

60. james wrote:

when that language, as you say, becomes ingrained in your community, then it certainly does become a powerful catalyst for action when the occasion presents itself.

61. james wrote:

furthermore, dc, if riots became the regular outcome of folks “peacefully” protesting outside of abortion clinics, the city would probably have considerably less tolerance for the activity.

62. james wrote:

clifton, i think people say fuck the police because they are angry at the police.

63. DCI74 wrote:

Ok james now your flip flopping. First you said the words themselves can start the riots now those words have be engrained in a commmunity. So using your argument “fuck abortionists” is engrained in the anti-abortion community afterall I have been hearing them say this for 7 years yet still no riot.

I’d like to hear your answer to Clif’s question, does the reason behind the language even matter to you?

64. clifton harrison wrote:

but WHY james? WHY are people angry?

65. james wrote:

wyltk: i actually don’t know too many people like me.

66. wouldn't you like to know? wrote:

“wyltk: i actually don’t know too many people like me.”

thank god…

and thank you james, for teaching us colored folk how to deal with our blackness…you and garrett must be oracles…

all this time i thought y’all were machines…

67. james wrote:

dc, not flip-flopping, the words don’t have to be ingrained in the community, to start the riot, but it makes it easier for the rioters when they have a base from which to work. also, there is the fact or perception of violence perpetrated in the past, which makes rioting a whole lot easier.

the aboritionists, perhaps, don’t feel the need to riot because they lack that perception of past violence done to them personally or their families.

68. james wrote:

wyltk: i’m not teaching you how to deal with your blackness; i’m only offering comments about this particular event, and how i feel about rioting and generalized hate speech. most of you don’t have children, so your perspectives on rioting are a bit skewed. would you want your child burning and looting in the night?

69. clifton harrison wrote:

You still have yet to articulate your opinion on WHY you think people were “rioting”?

As far as my opinion on rioting, I think It can be a very effective tool in getting people to pay attention.

You probably don’t know who Gary King is do you James? He was also an unarmed young BLACK man, shot in the back by a police officer. Did you hear about any that? No..But a cop car gets damaged, store windows get busted, and it’s national news within hours.

Even Marc, I’m not sure when he heard about this situation in Oakland, but it took 8 days for it to hit his blog. I can’t say for certain that it was solely because of the civil unrest that made him write this post, but I would go out on a limb and say it may have encouraged/influenced him.

But I don’t like misguided anger and fustration. I wish the people that wanted to destroy property would have done it at the police station…personally.

70. DCI74 wrote:

“the aboritionists, perhaps, don’t feel the need to riot because they lack that perception of past violence done to them personally or their families.” Again you can’t be serious, I mean have you not heard of the countless incidents of Planned Parenthood offices being set on fire or doctors that perform abortions being assaulted, harassed and in some cases killed? So ok there may be very few abortion-related riots on record but the activists do kill, and assault and damage property all the components of a riot so if you want to play semantics, whatever.

james you are all over the place so I’m done. We don’t agree and that is what it is and your theory that words start riots is completely baseless because again 7 years and counting and not one incident at this abortion clinic. I just hope that what happened to Oscar, Robbie, Sean, Amadou and the countless others who’s names we don’t know never happens to you

71. Regkam2 wrote:

Speaking of massacre and brutality. Check out this link…

http://www.viewzone.com/g-massacro.html

72. james wrote:

dc, i know the names and the stories. each one is tragic. however, if i were killed by a policeman next week, i wouldn’t want my son, daughter, or wife out in the street protesting a week later, inciting rioters with chants of fuck the police, well before any investigation has even had the time to unfold. and i wouldn’t want anybody destroying a police station or anybody’s place of business because of my potentially wrongful death.

73. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Please stop James. Because this isn’t a hypothetical situation. If you by any means are implying that Oscar grant’s murder was “potentially” wrong, than i know you have no clue of what’s going on.

Also, the fact that you wouldn’t want your family protesting an unjust act by the people that are suppose to protect you, it lets me know that the ethnic/racial background doesn’t have a long history of police brutality (your white). In knowing that, it’s very understandable why you have yet to answer my question or why you don’t understand people’s anger about this situation.

74. Marc Lamont Hill wrote:

fuck the police

75. Mikal wrote:

I dont quite understand what happened. Was it a mistake or was it on purpose. I didnt quite know what I was looking at nor do I know the circumstances so I can comment. But after reading the hate you have in general for Police I hope you guys Dont call them when you are in trouble. Handle it yourself. Oh I forgot you probably dont own a gun to defend yourself. You know what lets sterotype black men as murders and drug dealers. Stop with the sterotyping. This was a unfortunate incident and lets allow the investigation to take place and the courts to handle the problem. Three cops isnt the whole police force.

76. Mikal wrote:

OMG I just saw what happened. That cop needs to put to death.

77. Clifton Harrison wrote:

how about you read an article about it before commenting Mikal….

78. ~JJG~ wrote:

Yeah Mikal, what Clif said…

79. Mikal wrote:

Touche! But I still wouldnt Say Fuck the police. thats like saying fuck niggas everytime a black man kills someone in cold blood.

80. Clifton Harrison wrote:

no…it’s not…that comparison doesn’t make any sense…

81. Mikal wrote:

By the way I said i couldnt comment about the shooting.

82. Mikal wrote:

Yes it does you are sterotyping all police and saying they are all bad. So it should be justified to say all black men are bad.

83. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Obviously you are not trying to think about this logically…honestly, I don’t even feel like trying to break this down. but you are sounding pretty ignorant (in my opinion) for trying to equate the two.

But for the record, I never said all Police are all bad. But I do say Fuck the Police..especially when they are not protecting and serving my people. Instead they are serving us bullets to the back, and protecting themselves when they get caught red handed…

84. Mikal wrote:

Okay and then I can say the same thing but instead substitute police for niggas or black men. Whats the difference. There is none because guess if someone said fuck niggas to me I would not like that as a black man and if I was a cop would not like it if someone said fuck da police.

Whats ignorant about that. You know what dont break it down for me because I AM NOT ON YOUR LEVEL.

85. Mikal wrote:

When did you get shoot in the back by a police officer Clifton.

86. Mikal wrote:

Clifton how many people you know personally was shot. Out of those people you know personally how many of those people was shot by a police officer.

87. Clifton Harrison wrote:

smh. Ok bruh..let me try this again.

If someone said “fuck the black man”, what would you take that to mean? what is the significance to that statement?

88. Mikal wrote:

Tells me you hate black men.

89. Clifton Harrison wrote:

ok…and that is a racial issue. When people say “fuck the police”, some mean the literal officers, but that chant, that phrase is also meant to criticize the police organizations as a whole. Not neccesarily(sp) each individual officer, but the establishment. It’s more than just trying to be rude and use profanity towards some police.

you dig what i’m saying?

90. Marc Lamont Hill wrote:

f da police

91. Mikal wrote:

No not really but I understand what you are saying. I thought this site was for intellectual debate on issues. when you say fuck da police that does lend much to the debate. Its like saying fuck Temple University because of three bad teachers in the school or fuck the whole collegiate system because of three bad teachers in ten of the biggest universities. This issue is about three cops one in particular that took it upon himself to shoot an unarmed man. I will not say fuck the police as an organization because of a bad individual. When you bring me evidence that it is the police policy to shoot unarmed detained black men in the back then I will agree with you until then I can dig what you are saying.

92. Mikal wrote:

Im sorry I can not dig what you are saying.

93. Clifton Harrison wrote:

No, it’s not like saying fuck temple university or fuck black man. It’s not just this one case. It’s a long, painful history of police brutality when it comes to people of color (specifically young black men). It’s more than just this, or Rodney King, or Sean Bell.

Do some honest research about police brutality in Oakland, and just in my city alone, the history is vast.

the black panthers, bobby hutton, the “oakland riders”, garry king.

It’s not an isolated incident. If you would do some reading about this BEFORE stating your opinion, we might be able to have an intellectual debate

94. wouldn't you like to know? wrote:

fuck fuck fuck da police…

fuck ‘em.

95. Mikal wrote:

I know about all of those incidents and I still can not agree. I live in Philadelphia. In 2006 there was 406 murders most of which was commited by black men. Some of the young men that was murdered I knew personally. I still wont say fuck da police just like I wont say fuck the black man. Bottom line there are bad people in the world and in all walks of life. They are teachers, Preachers, lawyers, drug addicts, fathers, mothers, black and white. It is not fair to lump every incident together and say “see fuck da police”.

I read all the time. I read some articles about this incident in particular and after looking at the video I can say the cop did the shooting on purpose. You need to be just as outraged everytime their is a shooting in you neighborhood. But your not because your ego is not effected by some nigga shooting someone. Your ego only goes into defend mode when it is racial. You probably supported the march in Jena too.

Black Panther party didnt they all get addicted to crack and then said that the CIA trick them and told them they were special cigarettes. I dont respect the BPP come better than that.

96. Clifton Harrison wrote:

hmm…interesting. well, for you to say you don’t respect the black panther party, it’s clear where your head is at.

so i would like to join my fellow barbershop homies and say

FUCK THE POLICE!

97. Mikal wrote:

Just do this Clifton. Give me some real evidence that speaks to the idea that the Police all over the country wants to kill black men.

98. Mikal wrote:

Im sorry I dont follow crack heads.

99. Mikal wrote:

Im talking about the Black Panther Party of course.

100. Clifton Harrison wrote:

you don’t have to look for evidence that they “want” to…they have, and do.

Another young black man in texas (unarmed ofcourse) was killed by a police officer.

You find evidence for yourself.

other than that…FUCK THE POLICE!

101. Mikal wrote:

Let me guess its not right to sterotype the whole black panter party. but it is okay to sterotype the police. If you stop believing the police is your enemy and understand they are human just like the black panters just like those black men that commit crimes just like the black men that dont commit crimes then maybe there will be some progress and real discussion on how to solve the riff between black men and the police forces all over the country. I guess until then we will echo the pioneer of ganster rap and push it off as intellect.

102. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Please read comment # 4…..thank you

103. Mikal wrote:

LOL You right we will never come to an agreement on this one. Ill respect your emotional pain you feel when a cop shots a black man. I will take “fuck da police” as something that really doesnt amount to anything but you expressing your pain in words.

104. Clifton Harrison wrote:

not listening..hmm, try comment #10

105. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

Thanks Marc for posting it. I wasnt sure if it had made it all the way out to Philadelphia by now.

This whole incident just blows my mind. How can someone get away with bloody murder? Thats why the people rioted James. The man who did this is alive, breathing air, watching tv, and checking email. And to add insult to injury — he’s under PROTECTIVE CUSTODY!!! That means me and Clifton who both live in the Bay Area — Alameda County — are PAYING FOR THIS MAN TO BE PROTECTED! He is enjoying luxuries that criminals who murder people should not have! That’s why they are protesting and rioting!

This man is a coward, a punk, AND a bitch ass. He cant even send an apology to the victim’s family? He cant even say that he was wrong? Instead of coming in for questioning, he sends his lawyer with his resignation letter and pleads the 5th? HOW DOES SOMEONE GET AWAY WITH THIS?

When he shot that boy everybody (even the cops) just looks at him like, WTF?!?!? And then his cop buddies and him try to confiscate as many cameras and phones as possible so there would be no evidence. That’s why the people rioted JAMES! They tried to COVER THE SHIT UP!

And Marc I’m with you at this point — FUCK THE POLICE. The police are supposed to protect and serve. Not BE protected from the laws which they are supposed to inforce on the masses. This is some bullshit!

106. Mikal wrote:

God Bless you Clifton, God Bless the police force, and GOD bless Oscar Grant, and God help us all. One day we will evolve and we will become conscious of our egos and then we will be able to fully understand one another when we are able to discuss with the actual person and not their ego.

107. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

and let me just throw this theory out there. White folks — grab your hats — because it’s not pretty. . .

The police and the rest of White America (for that matter) is nervous as hell right now. We are about to have a BLACK president. Not just in skin color, I mean a BLACK man who’s mother in law probably makes a mean ass batch of banana pudding, Black Man. This is the REAL DEAL.

Folks is getting nervous, and they will test any black man they possibly can, just so they can feel ’secure’ and ‘in power’. Please believe CHANGE has come but with a fair price. We all will feel this for a very long time. Because the White Man does not give up the power and the control that they’ve had since the inception of this country in one election.

108. Clifton Harrison wrote:

it’s clear that you judge and assume without knowing facts mikal.

whoisclifsoulo (dot) blogspot (dot) com/2009/01/oscar-grantoakland-will-never-be-same (dot) html

109. Mikal wrote:

Who is the white man and what makes you think they are not still in power.

110. Clifton Harrison wrote:

I hear you Mrs. Rivers…I’m already knowing…

111. Mikal wrote:

Im sorry how am I judging you.

112. Mikal wrote:

Or do you mean I am judging this particular incident.

113. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

oh and I have one more thing to say:
The ‘riot’ a few days ago was unfairly shown in the media. there were more suburbian white kids laying down in the streets on top of their skateboards than there were ‘ethnic’ kids breaking car windows. And 95% of it was just a peaceful demonstration. No matter what it is, there is always a good 5% that ruins it for everyone. But of course the media highlights them and not the majority who were expressing themselves in a non violent way.

114. Clifton Harrison wrote:

mrs rivers….I wrote an email to several of the writers for contra costa times and oakland tribune about that bullshit. i was so disgusted at how they were shaping this situation. Because they aren’t thinking about the future, and what will happen now if justice is not served.

I fear that then, the media will really see a “riot”

115. Mikal wrote:

Dont we all highlight the 5%

116. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

Mikal – the White Man is 43 presidents who have consistently kept rule of this country. Its the slave owner who was too lazy to work and sold black people like cattle to tend to their land. The White Man is the 99.9% of Fortune 500 CEO, CFO, and COO’s. The White Man is the man that can’t imagine being broke and kills himself because he lost $50million in the stock market last quarter.
Should I continue? Or do you get my point?

117. Miriam wrote:

james,

you are rather pointless. Never thought I would say that to someone I don’t know, but after all those comments, I would say, you lack empathy

118. Mikal wrote:

I get your point. but whats even worse is the black men that kill other black people for a few dollars, not so they can survive but so they can by some air force ones and designer jeans.

119. Mikal wrote:

Not that killing for survival makes it better but at least on the instinctive level we could somewhat understand.

120. Clifton Harrison wrote:

and you don’t assume? smh

121. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

are we on the same subject? because black on black crime does not fit into anyone of these subjects. Oscar Grant and Robbie Tolan weren’t victims of Black on Black Crime. They were victims of police aggretion. Nor does Black on Black crime justify Police Aggretion on Black Males. Save that topic for when it is relevant.

122. Miriam wrote:

james,

as far as anyone here is concerned, those gunshots were hate speech and louder than any spoken speech, they cut off speech and the life of a young man. If you don’t understand that then your are lost. just stop!!!!!!

123. Miriam wrote:

mikal,

all i have to say is deal with double-consciousness in a constructive way.

124. Miriam wrote:

now more than ever, i am wondering what race everyone here is seeing how powerful “race” is, in terms of “experience” and empathy.

125. Mikal wrote:

Its relative for many reasons. First of all, in today society black on black crime is the main reason for cops overreacting to black men. I was on the Phildelphia Police Department website and I looked at their most wanted list for violent offenders and I only say 3 white men. The rest were black and brown men and women. After looking at that one must see that it is easy for a cop to have a level of fear for black men especially if you believe them to be violent. The murders commited by black men everyday helps to create this climate. people sometimes say how can race be an issue if a black cop kills a black man. Thats simple black men too are scared of black men.

By no means am I defending cops who are in my eyes criminals. My only problem is the idea of making police the enemy. The enemy is the bad cowardly cops that are in the police force. The enemy is the black criminals that makes it extremely hard on black men in general. We need to focus on that. Lawsuits and good people becoming cops not riots will help to solve the police brutality problem. A huge reduction in violence committed by black men will also help.

126. Miriam wrote:

mikal,

“when did you get shot by the police officer in the back?”

did you really ask this question?- you are an individualist at heart. live your life in safety and don’t worry about anyone elses- you have strange way of understanding all of this.

127. Miriam wrote:

and you cannot dig it because you are confused…that’s why.

128. Mikal wrote:

Its just “fuck da police” I have a problem with. Thats all. how about fuck that cop or fuck the Oakland police force. when you generalize you leave yourself open to critizm and you dont have no real defense for what you are saying except that you are hurt and you are expressing your pain.

I would rather follow the sensibility of MLK and President Obama, not NWA and the Black Panther Party or the CRIPS.

129. Mikal wrote:

No its not that Miriam, I choose not to pick a side in this one. It is not the black man vs the police. When a black man gets shoot by a cop it is not an attack againts the whole race.

130. Miriam wrote:

mikal,

if you are of the brown hue and you do not know what double-consciousness is, i recommend dubois, because you are exhibiting signs of not knowing how to deal with it; white-on-black racism doesn’t always have to be compared to black-on-black to make you feel better. We all hate black on black crime and many of us, including Dr. Hill, have done their part to address the issue- tirelessly. In essence, you are preaching to the choir- at a time when we don’t want to hear this sermon- we are mourning this police brutality issue now. There is a time and a place for everything. You CAN separate the 2 issues.

131. Mikal wrote:

I just said when did you get shot in the back because Clifton said the cops are shooting us in the back as if to say he to is being targeted by the police. Maybe he is being targeted I dont know him or what he does. I am not being targeted by cops and the people I know who is being targeted are criminals trying not to get caught by the cops. So I can understand how criminals are the natural enemy of the cops.

My mom is a police dispatcher and we was having a discussion about cops a month ago and I was comparing the attitude of suburban cops vs inner city cops and my mom sumed it up beautifully she said that inner city cops treats everyone like criminals especially men(white and black) and suburban cops treat everyone like citizens. She then followed that up with inner city cops are tired of going to cop funerals.

Believe I get it and I understand your pain but “fuck da police” GROW UP.

132. Mikal wrote:

By the way Miriam I am a black man. I also understand that “fuck da police” doesnt help. Everyone dont want to see that and some might get offended. I just wanted to challenge the idea of “fuck da police” thats all. I was challenging that on line that was repeated throughout this blog. The shooting wasnt fair, the alleged cover up is not fair and “fuck da police” as a whole isnt fair.

133. Clifton Harrison wrote:

I said “US” because I am a young black man. I have a daughter. I catch the bart. I have a job. I COULD HAVE BEEN HIM! that’s why I said it.

But thank you for letting the truth out. You have a clear bias, and are assuming things, just like your mother. I don’t know you or your mother, and no disrespect, but assuming makes asses out of people.

134. Mikal wrote:

What am I assuming. you keep saying I am assuming. What am I assuming. I am assuming your are not targeted by cops what are you talking about.

135. Clifton Harrison wrote:

“inner city cops treats everyone like criminals especially men(white and black) and suburban cops treat everyone like citizens. She then followed that up with inner city cops are tired of going to cop funerals”

you agree with this statement?

136. Mikal wrote:

You just proved my point. You believe it is young black men Vs the Police. I dont believe in that and since you do good luck with that.

137. Clifton Harrison wrote:

do you not agree with your own mother’s statement?

138. Mikal wrote:

Going by my experience with cops to a certain extent. everytime I had a experience the Philadelphia Police Department they are usually a little hostile until they realize that I am no threat then they seem to tone it down unless I am with other people and then there guard is always up. Suburban cops seem to let their guard down until you give them a reason to believe you are a criminal and being black was not enough. Their is a different stress level for city cops. The threat of being killed to real to a inner city cop, suburban cops dont have that same level of fear because they dont encounter the violence as much.

139. Mikal wrote:

My mom talk to cops all day I am sure she understand what a cops sees everyday.

140. Clifton Harrison wrote:

sorry to break it to you, but your mom doesn’t know how all cops in every city operate…plain and simple. She also is a dispatcher..she is not on the streets, she is not a Cop.

also, you are agreeing with the exact thing you are criticizing me and others for. You said don’t generalize and say “fuck the police”, but yet you agree with your mother when she says “inner city cops treat everyone…”.

She can’t possibly know how all inner city cops everywhere treat everyone…

Secondly, that assessment of “inner city cops vs suburban cops” is flawed. cops in Oakland do not treat white men the same way the treat black men.

141. Mikal wrote:

I said to a certain extent. Cops in the Philadelphia are trained to keep their guard up and make their authority clear. I was talking about my experience with cops. Not every cop. At the same time I can discuss what I believe to be culture of a certain police force without saying fuck all police forces all over the country. Thats the problem. By the way are white how to you know.

This would be a better comparison. If a white man is believed to be a threat would he be treated the same as any black man in Oakland, who going by your assessment is always considered a threat.

If the threating white man is treated different in Oakland then you need to take that fight to the courts and to the ballots. By the way what color is your mayor. I bet he is black. Isnt the mayor the top cop of the city. why doesnt he feel threatened. What about your city council, I bet most of them are black, do they feel threatened. Who has the power in your city are they black or white. I bet they are black.

You know what I am convinced white has nothing to do with this. The problem is the fear of the Black man by all men including Black people.

142. Neil wrote:

fuck the police!

143. Miriam wrote:

Mikal,

you are an individualist at heart. That’s alright, but you seem to have forgotten what got you here in the first place. Communities of Black, White and many races of people died (and sucked up public criticism) so that they wouldn’t watch their brothers die in the streets; so that we would have the chance to speak out against police brutality…it is not the first and it is not the last, but rest assured that the people will mourn and speak out. It is not only black people who are protesting this (even if with the “fuck the police” language which has more complexity in its meaning than you are allowing it- it is an anti-authoritarianism message- it’s a short version that’s all…whoever gets it gets it)it is everyone.

The enforcement establishment is not just white, it comes in all shapes in sizes–the point here is not simply white on black crime in this instance, it is police brutality in what has for a long time been an authoritarian state- police brutality without a chance for recourse- why won’t people have anti-establishment outcry?–get over it. You are right, it is coming from a place of pain and you should not be ashamed to be hurt or angry.

MLK’s wisdom is not yours, if you know anything about the sense of community and protest (peaceful rioting)that he thought was urgent. “Us” and “I” will always be in tension, but one must never forget the other. Here are your comments:

“When a black man gets shoot by a cop it is not an attack againts the whole race.”

“I just said when did you get shot in the back because Clifton said the cops are shooting us in the back as if to say he to is being targeted by the police.”

144. Miriam wrote:

btw, fear of violence for an “inner-city” cop as you described is not an excuse. Do not justify this shooting because of fear- that, my friend is pathetic. They are trained to know when to shoot and when not to shoot- did you watch the video?

As for the deeming the lives of “black” bodies worth anything, law enforcement has many at times, become immune to it in big urban cities. We are saying the police need to be held accountable- why you have turned this into a simple black vs. white issue and dumb us down like that, I don’t know.

Your mainstream political rhetoric: “take it to the ballots” is very constructive, but there is more than one way to enact change, sometimes it happens through angry protest- history man.

145. Mikal wrote:

Miriam I Agree with most of your points except your assesment of me. Perhaps I am an individualist Perhaps I am not. But I am not against you protesting the establishment. Especially in this case. I only had a problem with “fuck da police”. Dr MLK princples was Jesus princples, it was Ghandi’s princples. Dr MLK fought for civil rights at a time when black people had not civil rights, Dr King fought a war that was clearly Black against the white establishment. Difference between you guys and MLK is DR KING SOUGHT TO UNITE WITH AN ENEMY HE DIDNT SEE AS AN ENEMY. DR KING FORGAVE THE COP THAT HIT HIM OVER THE HEAD AND PUT HIM IN A JAIL CELL DR KING FORGAVE THE MAN HE KNEW WOULD EVENTUALLY KILL HIM. Where does “fuck da police” come in at with Dr King. What I do not understand is “fuck da police”. I will never get it as much as I try to explain why dont get it the more we go off on these tangents.

146. Mikal wrote:

I am not justifing this shooting. I am just saying that people fear black people because of all the black on black crime I didnt say that its okay for a man to shoot an unarmed detained man in the back. This cop is clearly a unrepentant murder.

147. Mikal wrote:

This is simply a case where a crime was commited and it is up to the citzens and the mayor to place pressure on the DA to file charges and bring this case before a jury to decide his fate. But “fuck da police” I rather not. Improve the police sure. But not “fuck da police”

148. Mikal wrote:

Fuck it lets abolish the police force in general. Lets abolish the whole executive branch of the government. Lets make laws and we as citizens will enforce them. Thats the way to go. Yeah right.

149. Miss Martin wrote:

FUCK DA POLICE; FUCK FUCK FUCK DA POLICE

150. BT124 wrote:

FUCK THE POLICE!!!! FUCKING RIDICULOUS!

151. BT124 wrote:

And yes Mikal (#145) that is the way we need to go! (Abolish all of that shit and let us figure it out. Mind as well!)

152. DCI74 wrote:

Mikal are you afraid of young white boys who wear trenchcoats? Do you feel a twinge in your stomach if you pass beady-eyed, lanky white men with short hair? How about the weird-ass white guys with long ratty hair stuck in a look somewhere between an 80s hair band and a Jesus fascination? I’m gonna guess that unless you are emotionally disturbed or have some keen sense of awareness that allows you to determine a person’s propensity for violence, then you’re probably not scared of the men I described. But based on your argument we should be scared of boys that dress like the Columbine shooters, men that look like Jeffrey Dahlmer, Ted Kazinsky, and David Koresh.

Now let’s be honest, common sense prevents this innate fear from taking you over every time you leave the house because you realize that despite appearances every white man that fit these description is not a threat. So I refuse to buy your argument that black and black crime is what drives fear of unarmed black men by police and that somehow is the reason Robbie Tolan is in the hospital with a bullet in his kidney and Oscar is dead. It’s illogical the cops that shot Robbie never cross referenced the plate of his SUV with the address where they killed him, they would’ve seen the match and clear proof the car wasn’t stolen but in the possession of the owner in his own driveway. There is no excuse for a trained officer to feel every single black man is a threat until proven otherwise just like every white man that looks like Dahlmer isn’t going to eat the neighbor’s gay son until he actually does it. And please no disrespect to your moms but like the rest said, she’s a dispatcher. I know plenty of cops and yeah not all are bad but there is no way your mother knows anything about what really happens with cops on the beat. That’s like asking James Brown’s road manager what’s it like to perform in front a screaming Apollo crowd, all the roadie can do is guess but will never know until he’s onstage in the moment.

153. Cézsar wrote:

Wow! The evidence in that video is quite damning. If that officer is acquitted of cold blooded murder, I fully expect riots worse than that after Rodney King. Anything less by Black Americans would be like saying to cops: “Me next please! Me next please!”.

“I was on the Phildelphia Police Department website and I looked at their most wanted list for violent offenders and I only say 3 white men. The rest were black and brown men and women. After looking at that one must see that it is easy for a cop to have a level of fear for black men especially if you believe them to be violent.” – Mikal

“I am just saying that people fear black people because of all the black on black crime” – Mikal

^And they dont fear white people because of all the white on everyone crime? Let’s see – the white on Black crime, the white on Jew crime (US & UK turned them away from their borders and the Germans did their thing), the white on Arab crime, the white on Islam crime, the white on Indian crime, the white on Aborigines crime, the white on Africa crime, the white on Asia crime (Heroshima, Vietnam), the white on white crime, the white on mind crime, the white on child crime, the white on everybody else’s land crime (war, ethnic cleansing, genocide, rape, torture, whatever it takes to get your land, wealth and talent crime) – all this and you still don’t fear white people? Damn! What is this slight of hand that they have performed on you?

You choose instead to fear Black men with their “mini me” version (black-on-black) of white-on-everyone crime (which is evidently very fruitful and worth doing) because you’ve been trained to view one through a telescope the right way up, and the other through a telescope the wrong way round. It’s nothing but a magician’s trick, it’s called distraction: they set up a straw man so to speak, and give you that imaginary image to play with while they gets busy and by the time your attention gets back to where it ought to have been, you can’t account for what just transpired so you smile anyway and say – “oooh it’s magic, isn’t he wonderful?”. Open your eyes man. Look at history in totality and tell me honestly who you ought to be afraid of.

154. DCI74 wrote:

“Damn! What is this slight of hand that they have performed on you?”

Lol you’re funny Cezsar, very well put.

155. cynthia wrote:

I regret being late..

Well put Cezar…

Where the fuck is Tanya?

156. ~JJG~ wrote:

Mikal,

We can’t just simply say “fuck the cop or fuck that particular police department,” because the magnitude of this situation goes beyond a single police department. When we say, “FUCK THE POLICE,” we are saying, fthe establishment; fuck the legacy of hate of black men by the police; fuck the police who sodomized Louima; fuck the officers who beat King; fuck the police who wear uniforms in the day and hoods at night; fuck the police who beat, used teargas, and hosed down our elders while they marched; fuck the racial profiling and harassment; fuck the police who killed Oscar Grant, Kathryn Johnston (black elderly woman), and many, many more. We are saying fuck this heritage of hate and injustice, but instead of saying fuck this legacy, you formulate your justification of why it is in place—black on black crime. Think again. Cezar put it well with his analysis of white on EVERYONE crime. You are so very misguided.

You have yet to acknowledge the police’s legacy of hatred, unadulterated racism, and black murder. Simply because your person-centered experiences with the police have been different than that of many black men, does not mean that you are in the majority. History and statistics tells us differently. When was the last time that you heard of an unarmed, handcuffed white man was shot by the police?

And I have to echo DC, when arguing the notion of the tactics of the inner-city police and suburban police…please get another resource other that your mother to support your claim.

157. Mikal wrote:

DC I am not justifing this murder first of all. Second of all, The Black on black crime highlighted in the media and glorified on wax is not at all a factor on a white cops and black for that matter who may or may not understand the black culture and they might even have a hatred for what they seems to be black culture. If you want to pretend that their is no fear of black men, fine but the fear is their. Black people that look a certain way and act a certain way poses a threat to a small percentage of cops. That small percentage is enough for you to say fuck da police I guess. I disagree that the whole law enforcement establishment is the blame for every bad cop that makes a bad decision. Nor will I get in my perspective black race corner and say yeah it is us(black men) against the cops. I have no problem with holding police accountable for their actions. We just have a different opinion when it comes to the visceral hatered of the police establishment as a whole.

JJG comparing cops actions from the 50s, 60s with the cops of the 90s, and 2000 is silly because black people didnt even have rights back then. The local governments policy as a whole treated black people like 2nd class citizens. There are also a lot of black cops now. So explain why a black cop who in many cases is related to black people would choose the side of a organization his family (black race) is at “war” with.

You will not convince me that the whole law enforcement establishment is bad. Have laws change and maybe there would be less to enforce.

158. Mikal wrote:

This will hopefully be my last commit about this. I believe DC, JJG, Miriam, cezar, Dr Hill, and Clifton just want to be victims. You seem to have this idea that black people keep are identity by staying in constant victim-hood. Thats why when Oscar got shoot you felt like a victim and this victim mentality seems to energize you guys. You guys can be miserable victims all your life. But not me even when I become a victim of someones hatred I still want retain the identity of victim all my life.

IF YOU ARE SCARED GET A DOG

159. Mikal wrote:

I still wont retain the identity of victim all my life.

160. DCI74 wrote:

Mikal I feel for you I really do especially if you somehow got the idea that I subscribe to some victim mentality from my posts. You couldn’t be further from the truth because everything I do in my life is based solely in creation of solutions and moving forward with actions from my work with youth to my other pursuits, I don’t have to time to be victimized so please either reread or disagree but don’t put your foot in your mouth by making assumptions. Black on black crime pales in comparison to white on everyone crime and men on women crime. Men commit more rapes than women yet do women panic every time they pass a man on the street? No because logic sets the pace, no matter how you slice it your theory is destined to be swiss cheesed.

161. Clifton Harrison wrote:

“but don’t put your foot in your mouth by making assumptions”…..anymore than he already has…

162. Miriam wrote:

mikal,

you did not hear anything I said (or anything Clifton said) because you are too busy saving yourself at a time when people are angry and mourning—language changes eventually-feelings do not– that is what we have in common with MLK. Read the speech he wrote before he died and read Malcolm- language changes–let it come at its own pace and allow it complexity.

163. Miriam wrote:

I want to explain, “feelings do not change”- I mean when it comes to these cases of brutality like this and violent discrimination. –”fuck tha police” can become “forgive them for they know not what they do” and I, believe, like you do, that language is very powerful, but this is a space and a TIME where we feel like we can be angry, so allow us that. don’t criticize us because we are angry. MLK said many things in the corners of his home and personal spaces that we will never know…and he had some angry words–what is important is that we channel our rage into action that holds people accountable–and that our language changes with time- but do this one thing- grant people the chance to speak, even if the language is not privy to your ears…sometimes, first you have to meet people where they are at- identify with the pain first, don’t push it aside to serve “moral uprightness.” allow debate and then give your two sense- that way you have become a part of the community of speech before you transform it– you feel me? (one of my girls taught me this lesson in college)

164. Miriam wrote:

a response to fear of black men because of black on black crime:

Mikal, I understand this fear, as a black woman, and sometimes, depending on where I am at I feel it. I have also been robbed (by a black man who was looking for money) and seen people in close to me held at gunpoint (by black men looking for power and money), but I have also been harassed (by a white man who was looking for money).

HOWEVER, fear is something you can cope with, and deal with, personally. Fear is one of the things that cannot be generalized–because it has disastrous consequences particularly for a community of minority and poor men, (many of them black- you are preaching to the choir again).

UNFORTUNATELY, many police officers have been told that they are exempt from this type of self-reflection and personally dealing with this fear (through training)simply because they hold the reins of authority symbolized in a shiny metallic badge and a blue, black, or brown suit. You’d be surprised how many come to the force ready to kill because of this fear- that’s the elephant no one talks about. It like the red, white, and blue (flag) and the lives being snatched all around world- it all amounts to generalized fear and territorial power- and that Mikal, is what is happening- it is dangerous- I’m sure your mom feels it is dangerous.

Once, you take the black and white out of this issue and we focus on what drives poor, disenfranchised youth to seek money and power at all costs, then we get to the root of all of this pain. BUT that does not mean we fail to see the error in this generalized fear and the grave cost.

165. Marc Lamont Hill wrote:

fuck da police

166. Miriam wrote:

mikal,

a response to your notion of victimhood:

I do not fear your words or your attacks (as I am sure many of us do not). I feel sorry for your lack of empathy for people who are victims of establishment territorial actions(as it was in this case). Your inability to look simply at this video case square in the face and deal with the pain and the anger that comes with it, is pathetic. I’m sorry.

Instead, you have left this individual case; the video above (although not your individuality- your separateness from others)and like, so many in the establishment, turned a deaf ear to instances of injustice like this and the outcry.

Yes, I feel like a victim after watching this, and after seeing Gaza. Feeling like a victim is nothing to be ashamed of (it means you are not afraid of being vulnerable– and you want to fight back).

I once, was a slave (I think in terms of community evolvement- try to grasp it for a minute- imagine your life is tied at the hip to the lives of others) and I am not ashamed of that history. I won’t bury it. Why? because I knew that while I was vulnerable, and I was a victim of the crime of enslavement (legitimized by the establishment though it was), I was also a fighter. My chains did not hold me back; did not prevent me from speaking, and dancing, and laughing, and crying and they did not prevent me from rebelling. In fact, rebellions made manumission in consequential all around the world. I WAS A VICTIM, BUT I WAS A FIGHTER, AND A LIBERATOR. Please do not ever think that feeling like a victim automatically turns into helplessness or misguided rage- it can be a catalyst for empowerment and change- don’t get twisted- it can turn into something BEAUTIFUL, Mikal. That is why we are here. Don’t you ever forget that- it wasn’t because of enslaved peoples who thought they were fine (that is another issue)- it was because of those who knew something had to be done- that is why we are here, Mikal. Words, however, must transform into action- that is key.

And as for “victim-mentality,” Mikal, you are a victim of your individuality and your troubled double-consciousness [when seeing the world through establishment eyes (whether it is a justification of or complicit silence about violence because of a generalized fear of black men that may lead to killings or not) does not allow you to question how that establishment has contorted the image of who you are].

167. Miss Martin wrote:

well put Miriam~ and I, personally, thank you for your words of insight. They’ve helped me…

(FUCK DA POLICE) btw

168. Miriam wrote:

~that is really sweet Miss Martin. I have benefited from your words as well (I have seen your comments on many other posts).

One thing I will say, is that even in our anger, let us pray that God will end this injustice. Let us peacefully protest and loudly (there is room for anger and frustration, but let us be careful that our actions do not betray the real cause of our hearts, even if in the moment).

Let us pray. Let us not lose sight of the fact that this is happening all over the world (we just don’t see it in the mainstream media). This is not the first and it is not the last, as long as men have their own interests at heart. Let us be mindful of this and pray.

The beloved community that many people (including MLK) helped build and hoped for, will not come if we are not willing to pray and have faith that vengeance is God’s- the author of life- as we fight with our voices (whether it is in song, poetry, political blogs, literature). Also, lift every voice to God and know that he is listening to our cries. Let us never forget that he has the power to change things, even if we might not see the full scope of that power (MLK did not live to see today, but trust, he is watching from heaven).

169. Mikal wrote:

I read all your post. But I will not make any further comments on this issue.

170. Mikal wrote:

You know what I will comment. My ego is making me do it.

Miriam, I agree with most of what you say, and you are right when you say that maybe I should allow people to vent and then maybe at a later time and date challenge the hatred that I feel, when I see seemingly logical people, write “fuck da police”. Next time this happens and there will be a next time, I will allow everyone their space to express their feelings. I am not going to go over my points anymore because if you read my points no where do I excuse police brutality or the over reaction of fear of black. Nor do I excuse the over reation of fear to muslims. I get, I get, I get.

As for the individualism comment. I think YOU ARE CORRECT. The human race as a whole is not evolved enough to be collective. Collectivism doesnt work when ego is prevelant. When humans evolve and are able to not be self center(must be aware of ones thoughts and ones ego) then collectivism is possible. Stop saying I am an individualist as if to say that it is wrong.

171. Mikal wrote:

DC, dont feel sorry for me because I am fine. I am fine because I try not to be completely driven by a collective ego and collective pain. I try not to allow my own ego to take over my everyday actions and try to temper my ego by seeking to go above thought. Unfortunately, I like thinking and anaylzing and judging and that is the essence of ego. When I get past that and live in a society that is past egoic thinking then maybe collectivism can work. So no I its not im my eyes black vs blue. I refuse to have unquestioning loyality to the black race. I am more interested in the whole of humanity to a certain degree.

172. Mikal wrote:

In closing a applaud all that you guys do to create a change in what you see as wrong. Dont think for one second that I dont I respect that about you DC and Clifton and you to DR Hill. I will slow my reaction to anger and become conscious of my own ego next time around.

173. Miriam wrote:

black people are a part of the human race, Mikal.

and please don’t paint us small- we are all driven by a lot of things.

absolutism is dangerous- it’s dangerous to think of things as either/or- race is fragile and real at the same time. collectivism exists– maybe you don’t see it because you don’t want to.

and individuality is a beautiful thing–but you can never find it separate from what you have been given by any community of people- it comes from and is a direct response to collectivism…so when some shy away from collective voice and struggle in quest of some form of individualism- it baffles me. however, it must never become a burden- that is why I think God is important as a center and love. they are two of the most powerful things to me…and that I got from a community of people that I love.

to go above thought is non-existence. we are not gods. we’re human and we will have egos, but i completely agree with you about checking our egos–or selfishness.it’s all love though

174. Cézsar wrote:

“Men commit more rapes than women yet do women panic every time they pass a man on the street? No because logic sets the pace, no matter how you slice it your theory is destined to be swiss cheesed.” – DC

^True story DC. I can’t believe that Mikal is in effect saying it’s Black folks fault that they are being shot by police, just like it’s women’s fault also that they get raped. Absolutely shocking logic. And that’s why his theory is forever destined to be swiss cheesed lol! Also, he admits proudly to being an egotistical individualist (keen to question only Black people when he should only care about himself) and yet he says he cares about humanity as a whole – what a (oxy)MORON.

Cynthia I think Tanya has pulled a Bin Laden on us and gone into hiding…either that or she has gone in search of her credibility lol!

175. DCI74 wrote:

“Unfortunately, I like thinking and anaylzing and judging and that is the essence of ego.”

And if you truly believed that then your theory that black on black crime causes cops to fear black men would also apply to women and rapes. They should be in constant fear of all men and we know that isn’t the case. It’s just interesting that you think it’s acceptable for cops to not use common sense but everyone else should. I will continue to feel sorry for lost people like you.

176. Mikal wrote:

DC I didnt say that cop should fear black men I said that they do. You guys are dont comprehend what you read. I said black on black crime and the glorification of it creates fear. By the way there are millions of women that have a terrorizing fear of men so much so they will not all men in their home without another man in the house. Stop it with idea that I am saying the Black men are the cause of police brutality because I didnt say that. i said that black on black crime is one of the main cause that people black and white fear black men.

DC you created a theory that I didnt create. It is true that people fear black men, not everyone but some people in general. I have to go to people houses everyday and women fear me black and white. Men also fear what I might do to them mostly white men. Women usually make their fear known only after they feel comfortable with me. They would say something like I wasnt going to let you in because I would rather for my son or my husband to be home when a man comes to do something in my house, you cant be to careful these days.

177. Mikal wrote:

Cezar read my post again it says care about humanity to a certain degree. Cezar Maybe you are right gangsta rap and black on black crime creates no fear. Cezar Black on Black crime creates no fear? Do you truly believe that.

Now as a cop you should have enough balls and courage to temper your fear. But people are human all cops are not good cops and they should be dealt with. Stop saying that I believe this shooting is justified.

Stop saying that I believe that fear is a justification of murder.

178. Mikal wrote:

You guys are the only people I know that think like this and I am from the hood. I did things in my past that I am not proud of and I dont know one person that think the way you guys do. I glad that your ideas are not the most prevelant in society.

179. Miriam wrote:

you are from the hood, huh? why did you mention that…just curious?

180. Clifton Harrison wrote:

i was thinking the very same thing. I guess people don’t realize saying you “from tha hood” doesn’t give you any credibility especially on the internet…

181. DCI74 wrote:

“It is true that people fear black men, not everyone but some people in general.” Ok first it was some cops that fear unarmed black men now it’s people in general, got it.

“Now as a cop you should have enough balls and courage to temper your fear.” Just like women do every single day and that is the point I’ve been making but thank you for just making it for me. Women don’t walk around in panic mode all day just like cops shouldn’t be walking around with an itchy trigger finger because logic should allow them to temper their fears. Thanks for making my point Mikal.

182. BigVic4 wrote:

Down with “Mr. Charlie” !!

183. FBI-CIA wrote:

You know, watching people getting killed on TV or in a movie is one thing. BUT this shit here is on a totally different level! Today was the first day I watched this clip in its entirety. I was afraid, my heart was heavy, I just couldn’t. Even if this cop “thought” he was pulling for his stun gun, it still isn’t a good enough excuse. The man was already subdued, handcuffed, a knee in his back/neck, face down kissing concrete. Why would you need to stun him? Poor excuse.

184. FBI-CIA wrote:

Btw, this comment is directed to Mikal. “Fuck da police!” I have friends who are cops. The whole establishment is crooked. From the top down, including judges. (which was good for me but sucks for you if you don’t have a “friend”) When that shit changes, then we’ll change the verbiage.

185. econwhat wrote:

Horatio…CSI Miami…”gentleman…we…followed…the evidence…what we have here…is cold-blooded murder…AWWWWWW!”

186. Clifton Harrison wrote:

yo! ain’t nobody fuckin with Horatio….*put my glasses on and take em off Horatio style* hahaha

187. Mikal wrote:

DC thats my point I wasnt disagree with you I was just didnt agree with the whole fuck da police thing. You just misrepresented my statements. Just because I make a statement about black on black crime creating fear of black men doesnt mean I am saying that it is justified to kill black men because of fear. I dont understand why that is so hard for you to understand.

188. Mikal wrote:

So I can get some street cred

189. Blaxx wrote:

Wow. I missed a lot on this. I also underestimated the amount of comments.

By the way, Fuck the Police.

Fuck em, fuck em, fuck em. Even if they’re celibate.

190. alb wrote:

I saw a video of the shooting on a different website. I’m not sure if it is the same video that marc posted (and i can’t bring myself to watch it again) but it seemed like the shooting my have been an accident, like the gun was accidentially discharged. Of course the end result is that man is dead and so the office needs to be punished but it may not have been deliberate.

191. DCI74 wrote:

Lol @ Mikal, street cred?? Ok after rereading your posts I found your point buried among your other rants so imagine that, we slightly agree.

192. Tanya wrote:

I saw this post a few days ago, but I was having problems viewing the video, and I didn’t have time to read the 70 comments that were posted at that time. So I didn’t comment.

I have seen the video now, but I don’t have time to read 184 comments (damn!), and I want to read ALL the comments before I offer my commentary and share the info I received regarding this event. So I’ll come back to comment when I get some time this weekend!

193. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

Here’s an UPDATE:(www.ktvu.com)

BART Slaying Called ‘Intentional’; Former Officer In Custody
Tuesday, January 13, 2009 – updated: 11:27 am PST January 14, 2009

OAKLAND, Calif. — Former BART police officer Johannes Mehserle was charged Wednesday with intentionally killing an unarmed man in a New Year’s Day shooting at a crowded transit station.

In announcing the charges, Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff said the evidence turned over to his office supports a second-degree murder charge.

“Murder charges were filed because at this point what I feel the evidence indicates is an unlawful killing done by an intentional act,” he told reporters. “From the evidence we have there is nothing that mitigates that to something lower than a murder.”

“That does not mean that evidence might develop in the future – particularly as it develops at trial…But when you have a homicide that is intentional and there is no mitigating evidence it is more or less presumed to be second degree murder.”

Former BART police officer Johannes Mehserle, 27, made a brief appearance in a Minden, Nev., courtroom and agreed to return to Alameda County to face a homicide charge in the shooting death of Oscar Grant III.

Oakland police had provided the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office information Tuesday morning that Mehserle was at a family friend’s home in the Zephyr Cove area of Lake Tahoe, Nev.

After receiving confirmation that an arrest warrant had been issued, authorities contacted Mehserle’s attorney, who in turn called Mehserle. The former BART officer surrendered to sheriff’s officials without incident at about 6:20 p.m., the sheriff’s office reported.

He was booked into the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office main jail in Minden without bail on a fugitive warrant for homicide from Alameda County Superior Court, according to the sheriff’s office.

Mehserle refused to talk to BART investigators before resigning his position last week. The transit authority passed on details of its internal investigation to Orloff on Monday. The case also is being investigated by the Oakland Police Department.

State Attorney General Jerry Brown has assigned a prosecutor to monitor the case, and the U.S. Department of Justice has dispatched mediators to help avert violent protests such as one in Oakland last week.

The fatal shooting at the Fruitvale BART station in Oakland occurred shortly after 2 a.m. on Jan. 1 when Mehserle and other officers stopped a train after receiving reports that two groups of men were fighting on the train. The men including Grant were removed from the train. Witnesses say Mehserle shot Grant in the back while he was lying facedown on a train platform.

John Burris, the attorney for Grant’s family, said he talked to Grant’s mother, Wanda Johnson, on Tuesday night and she was delighted with the news.

“However it does not bring her son back,” Burris said. “But she is happy and pleased that an arrest has occurred.”

Grant’s family has also filed a $25 million legal claim against BART.

The news comes on the eve of a large demonstration planned for Wednesday to protest the shooting.

Police officials met Tuesday with protest organizers to discuss security plans for the 4 p.m. event on the steps of City Hall.

Several protests already have taken place, including one last week that turned violent. More than 100 people were arrested, and as many as 45 businesses were damaged.

Police say they expect about 1,000 people to turn out for Wednesday’s protest.

Dereca Blackmon, the co-founder of the Coalition Against Police Execution, which is organizing Wednesday’s protest, said she was pleased Mehserle was arrested but still wanted to know more details.

“We’re disappointed that it took him feeling the state in order for the law to take some action,” she said. “Honestly this situation brings more questions than answers. Why was he fleeing?”

BART board member Carole Ward Allen said she was pleased to hear the news about the arrest.

“I want to know why he did it,” she said. “We’ve heard from everybody else but him. While I can’t speak for the entire BART board, we want to make this process as transparent as possible.”

194. DCI74 wrote:

I am so glad he’s in custody, now hopefully justice will be served.

195. Clifton Harrison wrote:

right, this is only the beginning…and believe me, I’m gonna personally try and kick Oakland’s current District Attorney outta office (regardless of the outcome). He’s got to go

But the officer needs to get 25 to life….

196. anita wrote:

he deserves the death penelty not 25 to life… send him to florida, we don’t mind putting people to death here…and what we do is legal…

197. anita wrote:

easy on the f the po-po there Marc, your buddy Bill O’Rielly will use that against you in your bid for office in 2016

198. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

I think I would stop being so pissed off if Mesherle just showed any sign of sincerity. Can I get an apology? a tear? something? how much of an ass can you be?

199. anita wrote:

As a white person I can say, we can be generally arrogant assholes with arrogant asshole lawyers who tell say things like “act like you did nothing wrong and you’ll be treated like you did nothing wrong”. Not trying to start something more, but when I saw the video I was ashamed… You know sometime Marc posts those “embarrassing negro moments” and I have smiled, thinking that there should be some “embarrassing whitey moment” postings as well.. this, although it is not comical in any way, shape or form, was to me one of the biggest “embarrassing whitey moments” ever. How dare he (the white officer) take away from how far I thought we had come as a people, a united states people, white and black. How dare he take a life-like it didn’t matter. How can he, or any other officer like him, vow to protect and serve human life when they attribute no value to the lives they are to protect?
So, Mrs. Rivers I just want you to know that I am sorry this happened. I cried so hard my eyes swelled… I know my words can’t make a difference or change how this has effected you or this young man’s people but I wanted to say it anyway… Please don’t put me in the same grouping as the officer because we share the same color of our skin…

200. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

Anita I dont think i meant that he was an ass because he’s white. He’s an ass because he’s an ass — no color or culture is required to be one.
And trust, when black folk mess up, I dont apologize for them so you shouldnt either.

201. Miss Martin wrote:

as a black woman….i say **standing ovation for anita**

your empathy is refreshingly human. please be sure to spread that sense of sincerity and compassion to all that you can get through to. cuz some of us (obviously) ain’t get the effing memo that we’re moving forward in THESE here united states…NOT backward! i personally hope they throw that sack of human flesh (real: that coward ass police officer) UNDER THE JAIL!

202. Clifton Harrison wrote:

I second that Miss Martin….Bravo…

“Cannon to the left of them, Cannon to the right of them….encore…encore” hahaha

203. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

Clifton are you going to the rally today?

204. Clifton Harrison wrote:

yeah, i went, did you Mrs. Rivers? I’m back at work (had to finish some shit), but i’m going to write a long post about it hopefully tonight, but definetly by tomorrow.

Basically, to sum it up people, it was peaceful, powerful, and i was damn proud of my people today…..BUT, shit ain’t gone be cool if tha cop get off..shit ain’t gonna be peaceful and lighting candles and shit if he ain’t serving years in prison (if not life!). Mark my words about that…

205. Mrs. Rivers wrote:

i didnt make it. i saw all the helicopters circling around Oakland while I was driving home off the 880 though. Glad it was a good event. I cant wait to see how the news will spin it. KRON 4 is notoriously known for that. I thought they were halfway instigating this morning!

206. Blaxx wrote:

Shouts to anita (who I only learned was white last night after she made a comment on my blog LOL). We wouldn’t even think of lumping you into the same class as this officer because honestly, to me, the officer being white and Oscar Grant being black takes a backseat to “police officer murders unarmed man while he’s lying face down with someone kneeling on his back”. I don’t know whether the latter issue is so much greater than the former or if I’m just so desensitized to white police officers murdering us in the street that I just don’t care anymore

207. DCI74 wrote:

the officer being white and Oscar Grant being black takes a backseat to “police officer murders unarmed man while he’s lying face down with someone kneeling on his back”.

Ditto

208. Clifton Harrison wrote:

Here’s a blog I did about the rally in Oakland on the 14th.

whoisclifsoulo dot blogspot dot com/2009/01/oscar-grant-rally-jan-14th-2009 dot html

209. Luci wrote:

Why, when something like this happens in Greece, there are hundreds of riots and demonstrations and ACTION. But when a police officer murders a threat-less person in a crowded area, on camera for shit’s sake, in America…there is hardly a ripple.

We are tame, puppets for the police and government.